posted October 09, 2000 10:06 AM         

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917

Dear Lord Rothschild,

I have much pleasure in conveying to you, on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet.

"His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.

Yours sincerely,
Arthur James Balfour

What does this mean???
"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"

WHERE IS PALESTINE? I looked and looked and looked and didnt see it on the map. Could you help me Bonus? I think my eyesight is failing.

posted October 09, 2000 11:39 AM            

ighting broke out last week in the Middle East, we read. This use of passive phrasing, almost universal in media reports of the violence in Israel, is a way of deliberately expressing agnosticism about the cause of the fighting. It is a scandal. It is akin to writing that on Sept. 1, 1939, war "broke out" on the German-Polish frontier.

Few wars break out spontaneously. And certainly not this one. Does anyone believe that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak, who went to Camp David and offered the Palestinians peace terms of breathtaking generosity, would be starting a war?

Does anyone believe that the most dovish government in Israeli history, feeling itself inches away from concluding a permanent peace, would initiate gun battles?

The plain fact is that Yasser Arafat, thrown on the diplomatic defensive by rejecting Barak's offer, has done what he has always done: resort to violence to regain the initiative and, most important, mint new underage martyrs — on world television — to regain the international sympathy he forfeited by turning down peace at Camp David.

His pretext was that the Sept. 28 visit to the Temple Mount by Israel's leader of the opposition so offended Islam that the faithful erupted in violence. The audacity of this claim was astonishing. Yes, the Temple Mount is the third-holiest place in Islam. But it happens to be the single most holy place for Jews.

Why does the Muslim claim so trump all others that Jews may not set foot on their most sacred site, their Mecca? The war that followed was as spontaneous as a Havana demonstration.

The preacher at the al-Aqsa mosque called at Friday prayers to "eradicate the Jews from Palestine." Official Palestinian television began playing over and over archival footage of the intifadeh of 1987-93 showing young people out in the streets throwing stones.

In case one still didn't get the message, Voice of Palestine radio began playing patriotic war songs. Arafat then closed the schools and declared a general strike, causing everyone to go out into the street.

This has been, as the Palestinians openly call it, a war for Jerusalem, not, as the world press has reported endlessly and fatuously, an expression of Palestinian frustration.

Frustration with what? Israeli occupation? It ended years ago; 99% of Palestinians live under Arafat's rule. Over territory? Barak has conceded virtually the entire West Bank. Over political subordination? Barak offered full recognition of the first independent Palestinian state in history.

The Palestinians were less frustrated than emboldened. Emboldened by an Israeli government so desperate for peace it has given up virtually everything. Emboldened by the fecklessness of Israeli doves who have been so impervious for so long to empirical evidence of Palestinian implacability that in this moment of supreme crisis they admit openly to disorientation.

Emboldened by an American administration so craven that it refuses to condemn Arafat for cynically starting this war, indeed, for repeatedly violating his single obligation under Oslo: the renunciation of violence.

Arafat started this war. It was not spontaneous, and it was not without direction. Arafat knows what he wants, and he is prepared to sacrifice as many of his own people as it takes to get it. Preferably on television.

posted October 09, 2000 12:13 PM         

The history of the Jews were one of captivity, perhaps, it was the way for the Lord God to be known to other tribes and races.
The Jews followed their conquerers around.
Many followed Alexander the Great because of commerce. They moved away from their given land.
Abraham made his money in Eygpt.
Esau moved away to modern Turkey
Jacob was sent away because he tricked Isaac.
He became wealthy in foreign land.
Joseph was sold and lived in Egypt, later his other elven brothers and Jacob lived there.

The Jews have always been on the move and they made money wherever they were.
For awhile they settled in Spain, perhaps a few hundred years, and then the Spanish Inquisition came. They were on the move again, not to the promised land but instead to Eastern Europe. Perhaps, another few hundred years.

The Jews that remained in Palistine co existed with Arabs, also the Jews that lived in the surrounding Arab states got along well together.
But then the European Jew began to remove the Palestians from lands and properties they had legal titles to and was never paid for those seized possession.
The one act cause reprecussion in the Arab world and many Jews had to return to Palistine. Palestine was a barren piece of land, but today as God promised, it is a lush country.

God can never be wrong, his son Christ came to bring mankind into the kingdom of God. He preached peace. God is ever knowing, all of history unfolds at his time.

posted October 09, 2000 12:25 PM         

Bonus, instead of justifying yourself, I wish you would take a trip to Israel. You would be VERY enlightened. The Israeli tolerance to Christians (and black people) is little different than their tolerance to Muslims.
And you didn't answer. Where is Palestine?
Read up on the activities of war criminal Ariel Sharon also, and his history of butchery of innocent civilians. (All in the name of peace and love, I guess).

posted October 09, 2000 02:50 PM            

But if we isolate this case and Ariel Sharon's visit to the Muslim's holy site. that is no excuse for an uprising. and rock throwing.
the barak and arafat spent countless hours in peace negotiations to think that solving this through talking would be beyond them.

posted October 09, 2000 03:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by BONUS:
Terry I will give you that. I'm not neutral. there are some facts that I'm very ignorant to.
You are also not neutral.

But if we isolate this case and Ariel Sharon's visit to the Muslim's holy site. that is no excuse for an uprising. and rock throwing.
the barak and arafat spent countless hours in peace negotiations to think that solving this through talking would be beyond them.

In no way was rock throwing justifiable to show objection over a premeditated visit.
If Sharon used this visit as a political matter to start an uprising so that he can have something to use against Barak in the next election so be it. but I don't think the palestinians should have swallowed the bait and reacted like that.

---

posted October 09, 2000 05:40 PM            

What an uneven war
by BBC

Analysis: Unbalanced battle for Jerusalem

Israeli troops were out in force
By defence correspondent Jonathan Marcus
Some Palestinians are calling this "the battle for Jerusalem", and with good reason.
For the Israel-Palestinian conflict has now been stripped down to its bare essentials - sovereignty over the Muslim holy places in Jerusalem is the central issue.
"Battle" is also an appropriate term given that this violence and the casualty toll that has resulted, is reminiscent of a war rather than an ordinary riot.
There's a danger that both sides could be losing control with the Palestinian Authority chairman, Yasser Arafat, either unable or unwilling to halt the disturbances, and the Israeli security forces tempted to resort to ever heavier fire-power.
Unbalanced forces
Some small rockets have already been used by the Israelis.
So far, despite requests from commanders on the ground, fire support from attack helicopters have only been used in an attempt to rescue trapped Israeli personnel.

Israeli soldiers used live rounds and rubber bullets against the demonstrators
The heavy death toll on the Palestinian side is in part a reflection of tactics and training.
Ordinary people, even backed up by elements of the Palestinian security forces, can be no match for trained troops.
The involvement of Palestinian paramilitary police has clearly given the Palestinian side some limited firepower of their own but their largely light weapons are no match for the Israelis' much heavier firepower.
Indeed, the use of firearms by the Palestinians has probably indirectly contributed to the much greater casualty toll, by provoking a much stronger Israeli response.
The Palestinians have been very much on the offensive and Israeli press reports note that many of the Israeli units are in strong-points or prepared positions making them far less vulnerable to Palestinian fire.
In purely military terms there is simply no contest. The Israelis can bring overwhelming fire-power to bear should this be required.
Heavy armour has already been on the move.
But if the hope is to overwhelm the Palestinians by a show of force the Israelis may find their huge military advantages are little more than an albatross around their necks.
The performance of the Israeli forces has sparked considerable international criticism of their actions.
It is by no means clear how precise their rules of engagement are or the extent to which they may be straying from them.
Nonetheless, the Israelis are unlikely to be swayed by such criticism since the stakes in what is increasingly looking like a small-scale rerun of the Palestinian intifadah are increasingly high.
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posted October 09, 2000 05:46 PM            

Palestine-Intifadah

 Jewish settlers re-enact "Kristallnacht" in al-Khalil

Athens, Oct. 9, IRNA -- Paramilitary Jewish settlers, armed with

automatic rifles, axes, and clubs, went on the rampage in al-Khalil

for the third consecutive night Sunday, smashing the windshields of

Arab cars and firing heavily on Arab windows, said a despatch received

by IRNA from al-Khalil.

"It is a crystal night," said Dr. Taysir Zahdeh, a gynecologist,

indows of whose home were smashed.

"It is not only the smashed glass, there is also the terror that

accompanies the bullets piercing the windows," he said.

''Kristallnacht'' or the night of broken glass took place in

November 1938 when the Nazi militia in Germany and Austria mounted

a concerted attack against Jews and their property.

According to Palestinian sources in al-Khalil, over thirty

Palestinian cars were vandalized or destroyed by the marauding

settlers, who were carrying out their orgy in the full view of Israeli

soldiers.

At Tel al-Rumeida, a hilltop overlooking Bab El-Zawiya, the main

thoroughfare in down-town al-Khalil, the settlers attacked Arab shops

and shopkeepers, with stones and clubs.

However, when some Palestinians sought to fight back, using stones

and empty glass bottles, both the settlers and Israeli army soldiers

began firing at the Palestinians.

The marauding settlers then moved to "Tarik Yatta" where they

indulged in much the same thing.

"They shoot in all directions....as if they want to tell us to

leave or else they will kill us," said Muhammed Abu Sneineh, a

plasterer.

The settlers are viewed in al-Khalil as particularly nefarious

because, in the words of Dr. Yousef Sharawi, head of the government

hospital in al-Khalil, ''the evil they are capable of doing has no

limits."

"They simply think that killing a non-Jew, especially an Arab

is a great, charitable and gracious deed...their slogan is ...the best

of the gentiles...kill'em."

posted October 09, 2000 06:13 PM            

Permission to Kill

By Yitzhak Laor

Ha'aretz, Sunday October 8, 2000
http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/kat9_3.htm

On Sunday, November 30, 1972, British paratroops attempted to prevent a
march for human rights in the Northern Ireland city of Derry on the basis
of a judicial order making the Catholic march illegal. That Sunday ended
in the massacre of 14 demonstrators. Bloody Sunday will never be erased
from the blood-drenched history of the Anglo-Irish struggle. The British
are still studying the events that took place that day in Derry's
working-class neighborhoods.The massacre of Palestinians in recent days
will be with us for many years, not only because it won the full backing
of the media - Israel Television led the favorable coverage, but the
entire Israeli press followed in the footsteps of the holiday-eve
television reports. The old instincts came into play: criticism of the
Israel Defense Forces is prohibited, because the IDF - God - acted this
time as well.

The IDF did not defend Israel. Israel was not in danger. Permission to
kill has become "self-evident" even when it comes to defending the
thorn-in-the-side settlement of Netzarim. It is permissible to kill a
child in the arms of his father and to afterward deny that killing
"because he had no reason to be there." It is permissible to shoot
missiles at demonstrators, because at stake is not just defense of the
state or its citizens, but a "principle": one does not surrender to
violence. It is permissible to use violence to make others surrender. And
as usual, in summing up the entire event, human life is important only
when the human is not Arab.

The Israeli "self-evident" proposition worked overtime. The masses of
Palestinian demonstrators had the privilege to be shot at with live
ammunition and earned strong denunciations from the entire Israeli media.
"What can you do?" as if it were self-evident that live ammunition be used
to end such a struggle, as if it were obvious that "we are all united" in
demanding those liters of blood.

In exactly the same way, the closure of roads from Lake Kinneret to the
center of the country gave the right to treat the country's Arab citizens
as if they were children in the heart of the colonial wilderness of the
end of the 19th century, as if we had not seen the television footage of
truck and taxi drivers in Europe blocking roads on the Continent to the
point of totally paralyzing the economy, without a single shot being
fired. The press and the establishment stood up for the "policeman of the
Arabs," Police Major-General Alik Ron. In any civilized country he would
have been forced out long ago, if only for his racist statements about the
mayor of Umm al Fahm and head of the northern branch of the Islamic
Movement, Sheikh Ra'ed Salah: "Sheikh Ra'ed has a fertile, Middle Eastern
imagination."

But one can look for the background to the great massacre of these
terrible Days of Awe in the place where the great silence of the media and
the academic establishment can always be found: the main thing is who is
governing us when such things occur. If Benjamin Netanyahu were prime
minister now, we would have already heard cries to the heavens, or at
least some tough questions. This war is being waged by the government of
Prime Minister Ehud Barak, "our" government, of "the left." And so, for
the sake of peace of course, since after all everything is for the sake of
peace, everything is permitted.

The signal was given and the ground prepared for this horror after the
collapse of the Camp David talks. Out-and-out "doves" gave interviews and
wrote articles: Yasser Arafat, chairman of the Palestinian Authority,
betrayed them, Heaven forbid. They always wanted peace, they paid a heavy
price for peace, and now, when the Palestinians could get from them the
best peace that could be given to them (that is, without quarreling with
the settlers, without causing a "rift within the people," without
dissolving the coalition, without giving up the "dreams of sanctity" that
were born in the five historical minutes that preceded the negotiations),
Arafat - that is, the Palestinian people - turns his back on them, the
cooing doves, and listens to the yearning of his hard-pressed people,
without water or work, crowded between bypass roads and sanctified
settlements, because everyone knows that "Beit El is the eyes of the
country," or whatever organ it is the latest trite metaphor.

posted October 09, 2000 06:58 PM            

lets deal with the issue at hand.
1. Ariel Sharon visited a muslim holy site. the palestinians showed their objections by throwing stones and breaking the law. this was no way for them to show their disagreement at his actions.

posted October 09, 2000 10:07 PM            

Questions for you:

This this Iraeli occupation justifable?

Are the builiding of settlement in Palestinian areas right?

Why are refugges not allow to return home?

Don't call me anti-semitic, I am ANTI ZIONIST.

Zionism is nothing but racism similiar to Aparteid, no wonder why the whole of South Africa are in total support of Palestine. The zionist made money from South African diamonds. The oppressed from Europe has now become the oppressors.

IF ISREALI WITHDRAW FROM GAZA AND WEST BANK , the problem will be solved. Why u are asking for the Palestinian not to thrown stone. Has your home or property been stolen, have u had to ask permission to rebuild or repair your home, have your family been killed in front of your eyes, have bulldozers demolished your village and home, have u lost all members of your family, have u lost the keys to your home, Why have u become the renters of your own home?

DOUBLE STANDARDS at its best here. Its better to die in dignity than dihonourable living for life without dignity and respect;a nation IS WILLING TO SACRIFICE THEMSELVES, Arafat has no control of the situation now, if he is assinated the region will be enflamed, Arafat can't deliver what the Zionist wants him to do.

I support the state of Isreali to exist, but I am against ZIONISM, the dream of a bigger and greater Isreal , RELIGIOUS STATE, ISreal is a religious state and not a democracy, democracy only for jews.

posted October 09, 2000 10:41 PM            

Quit your whining. I will tell you again - while the loss of lives is regrettable, this is all the result of a Holy Jihad war that fanatics like you advocate. In a war, there are victims.. This is what you guys wanted, and this is what you got, the only part of this you don't like is that you're coming out on the losing end!!.

Bonus posted a factual piece that showed all the concessions Israel granted, but we're supposed to ignore those facts because they come from the white man's media. Yet you and Terry are the same guys that use this 'white man media' to denigrate blacks on this forum. Are you guys for real??!! The fact of the matter is that Arafat and the fanatics like you Jansher do not want peace, you will not rest easy until you see the total extermination of the Jews. You use the Palestinians as bait and unfortunately, it is innocent Muslims who are slaughtered in the streets and pay the ultimate price for the Holy Jihad. You never see the Saddam's and Arafats die in Jihads, they live to incite hatred another day.

Bonus, you said of Jansher

quote:

---

I don't think you are that illogical to believe that all non american reports are factual and all american reports are lies

---

I don't understand why he's so pissed, because this is the Jihad war that they always wanted. For years now they've been strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent men, women and children. They even came to the USA and shot a Jewish kid on the Brooklyn Bridge, tried to blow up the world trade center, and had a large terrorist structure in Brooklyn ready to wage war on peaceful New Yorkers in the subways, tunnels etc. Any of us on this forum could have been blown to smithereens on the way to work one day.

The Emperor of the Mughals and his Royal Bloodlines are only pissed off because they're on the losing end. In a few years as the US weakens and they gain strength you'll be surprised that this same Jansher was the same one crying 'victim' here. He'll be rejoicing in the demise of the 'infidels' like us. And they have the nerve to talk about racism and bigotry.

posted October 09, 2000 10:43 PM         

[This message has been edited by D2 (edited October 10, 2000).]

posted October 09, 2000 11:47 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by eddie:
BK,

There was life on earth before the United Nations. All the old ******ures such as the Bible, Torah and Koran mention the 'nation of Israel'. Where do you think that was, in Florida? The Jewish people were in possession of ALL of this territory inclusive of the Arab countries for centuries and were driven off it. They became scattered and the UN finally created that state for them. It is interesting that NO ONE was interested in that dry, barren strip of land before the UN gave it back to the Jews. No Arabs wanted it.

Eddie

---

posted October 09, 2000 11:51 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
WHERE IS PALESTINE? I looked and looked and looked and didnt see it on the map. Could
you help me Bonus? I think my eyesight is failing.

---

posted October 10, 2000 12:06 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BONUS:
BK I'm not gobblig up the American Media's Spin. that's for you and Nuff to do. eg the Marion Jones fiasco.

---

quote:

---

I held everything constant and this is what I got.

---

those events have been anything but constant

quote:

---

1.Ariel Sharon visted a muslim Mosque.
For that visit there were protests in the streets. The Mob mentality quickly grew and rocks began throwing.
Note Ariel Sharon did not throw any rocks. His visit could have been political but it did not require rock throwing to show disagreement. Arafat could have called up Barak and talk this out.

---

And I ask why did Sharon visit a mosque? How many muslims in prayers were brutally gunned downed by Jews? Mob mentality! Sharon did not throw rocks he did something much worse -- against bullets and wartanks, mowing down hundreds over this past week.

Enough talking have been going on for decades now -- more talk talk. Its time somebody act.

For 50 years the Palestinians have been forced out of their homes, living in "concentration camps". Most of the older men have been systematically killed off, the youths (average age 25) knows no other life than one of being a "prisoner" in their own home. What kinda future do you think these youths have? Why are the Jews still building homes on Arabs land - in the West Bank, Ramallah, Gaza, Hebron while the Palestinian homes are being bulldozed to make room for the Jewish settlers? Ask yourself these questions and see if you can honestly answer them.

quote:

---

As for that research. you actually think I'm stupid enough to believe that Israel did not begin until the UN mandate after WW2?

---

Given the reasoning on the claims to PALESTINE and that of Venezuela's claim - I would say lets put ALL the boundaries back to where they used to before the tribes were scattered all over the globe.

posted October 10, 2000 06:35 AM            

quote:

---

And I ask why did Sharon visit a mosque? How many muslims in prayers were brutally gunned downed by Jews? Mob mentality! Sharon did not throw rocks he did something much worse -- against bullets and wartanks, mowing down hundreds over this past week.

---

BK stick to the topic at hand.
Did an obvious disrespectful visit by Ariel Sharon to the Muslim site required Rock throwing by Palestinian men and boys to show there objection to his actions?

posted October 10, 2000 08:34 AM         

I understand the beef is about, the Israelees failure to fully honour the Stockholm Agreement.
That is the reason why both Arafat and Barak are cautious.

Many of us don't fully understand the facts, both sides are to be blamed for their hard lines.

posted October 10, 2000 09:23 AM         

Man I know these Israeli are murdering racists, but I didn't know they were stupid too.

The Palestine people have nothing to lose. There isn't even a country called Palestine on the map. Rocks against rockets! Over 90% killed are Palestinians, half of them children. The world sees Palestinian child, screaming in terror on TV murdered in cold blood by Israeli soldier.

posted October 10, 2000 09:33 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by eddie:
Jansher,

Quit your whining. I will tell you again - [b]while the loss of lives is regrettable, this is all the result of a Holy Jihad war that fanatics like you advocate. Eddie

---

posted October 10, 2000 10:02 AM         

Here in this place, sacred to many religions, we have great evil being committed. The wounds are deep and the guilt squarely is in the hands of both groups so there is a great burden to over come. It is not a war against Israel and the Palestinians but a war of spiritual allegiances across the world. This has to be settled. Israel has to be accommodating and the Palestinians will have to be equally so.

The sticking points are East Jerusalem and it is Arab lands. If the Palestinians make it their capital, they will not destroy it. Together with greater Jerusalem, it can be considered a commonwealth of both states, jointly administrated with the burden on each to take care of its own portion. The Arabs of this area have lived there for over a thousand years in peace with their Jewish neighbors so there is also a common history of this sort. The Jewish settlements in Gaza were created illegally so they have to go also. These are hard decisions but the only option remaining.

Israel cannot continue to use tanks and gunship on its civilian population. If Israel pull back its troops outside Arab areas there would be no more focus for the riots. For its own security, since a significant number of its population are Palestinian Arabs, it has to be concede to this or it will always be an undemocratic police state. Israel and its army are now in the streets of Arab neighborhoods. It simply has to pull back and let tempers cool. With all its might, it cannot win unless it kills every one of these people. Someone mentioned that there kids doing the fighting. I hope they note the average age of a Palestinian is 15 to 25; an age where tempers are not easily cooled and life can be foolishly given or taken.

No amount of historicism or laying of blame can solve this. It has to take the route of practical resolution where wrongs are not taken into consideration but means and ends to end violence the only strategy. The quarrel here on this board reflects how little understood this factionalism is. Everyone believes his or her position is valid and assumes the other side is evil. There is evil on both sides and the onus is always on the stronger side to re-evaluate if it wants to continue in the present manner or pull back physically and psychologically. This is not about leaders but about people.

If Guyana appears problematic, this is a thousand fold more complex with dimensions extending to all peoples. I am hopeful that solutions than be met. I am not among the fatalists who see pre-destination in religious texts and await Armageddon.

posted October 10, 2000 10:19 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nuff:
Eddie why are Moslems FANATICS but Christians DEVOUT?

---

There are fanatics in every faith. Jansher just happens to be a Muslim one like the fellas that start the Jihads. In nothing I've written have I suggested that all Muslims are fanatical, but I know Jansher is because of his past writings here.

There are Christian fanatics also, like the ones that bomb abortion clinics, stalk and kill abortion doctors, etc. I think truly devout people of any faith are not fanatical because their doctrine really doesn't permit them to be. If we take Christianity for example, Christ taught about loving your enemies, praying for them, ministering to them etc. Even when he was wrongfully accused and hung on the cross he didn't hate those who did it. If that is the example of our Lord, then what right do we have as Christians to go around killing abortion doctors and bombing clinics? It is fanatical and ignores the very premise of God. It is the same with these Muslim guys who seek to wage a Jihad.

In short, one can be devout without being fanatical.

D2,

You're an optimist regarding the Middle East and I respect that. But despite all the efforts of Man to establish his peace, that area of the world is where it is all going to come down (Armageddon). We see the Biblical events in shape right now. It's only a matter of time before the Anti Christ makes his appearance and wins worldwide acclaim by bringing 'peace' to this region. Whether it happens in our lifetime is another question.

posted October 10, 2000 12:59 PM            

If you look at how fast things have developed recently it makes one wonder. I have no doubt that what was prophesied will come to pass just like the prior prophecies. It is just a matter of when. Until then, I'll just continue to do my best and be a good soul.

posted October 10, 2000 07:36 PM            

quote:

---

Do not remove a flea from your forehead with a hammer.

---

I will ask you for the last time. Was the rock throwing, rioting and vandalism response by the Palestinians to Sharon's visit at the Mosque justified?

posted October 11, 2000 01:25 AM            

Palestine-Intifadah

 Jewish mobs vandalize, torch Muslim, Christian holy places

throughout Palestine

Athens, Oct. 10, IRNA -- Jewish mobs have been attacking churches and

mosques throughout the occupied Palestine as part of their hate

campaign against Arabs, Muslims and Christians alike, said a report

received by IRNA from al-Qods Tuesday.

In Jaffa, Jewish saboteurs put "Jami' Hasan Bek", an old mosque

redating the establishment of the Zionist regime, on fire.

Several Arab homes and businesses were also vandalized by the

saboteurs.

According to eyewitnesses, the arson and vandalism were in many

instances perpetrated in the full view of Israeli policemen who were

impassively looking on as if noting wrong was taking place.

Thousands of Jaffa Palestinian residents managed, somewhat

successfully, in putting out the fire.

Earlier, around midnight on October 8, a Jewish mob rolled burning

tires into the "Omari Mosque" in the town of Tabariya, setting the

mosque in fire.

This mosque also predated the birth of the Zionist entity, and

members of the Islamic movement carried out renovation works in the

mosque amid fierce opposition from local Jewish authorities.

The settlers also reportedly sought to set fire on a church in

Jaffa and one in West al-Qods.

Muslim leaders condemned attacks by Jews on Muslim and Christian

holy places.

A leaflet issued by the Islamic Movement in northern Palestine

warned the Zionist regime of the grave consequences and repercussions

of attacks on religious places.

Moreover, the Follow-Up Committee for Arab Affairs in the occupied

Palestine decided to appeal to the UN and the international community

to provide protection for the 1.3 million-strong Palestinian community

in Israel.

THE STONE ATTACKED BY PALESINIANS after the Terrorist and known killer Sharon visited and desacreted al qods, haram al shaief is justified.

Eddie:

our simplistic and passionate di******ion of me and as a Muslim fanatic is being over played, and your trying to pit me against blacks, all hold no truth, because u don't know me personally and what my morals and pricipals are. I Zionist i hate, not the State of Isreali and the Zionists like u are jUST PLANNING TO TEAR DOWN HARAM AL SHAIEF to built your so called profecy of building a temple.

Your opinion of me is rubbish, the jews, hindus, and blacks or the Sudanese in my life/family theirs opinion count. Not a naive and simplitic emotional belching of yours. Go take it somewhere else mr. righteous, u are trying to portray yourself as god here, go suck an orange.

My family has proven and me myself of assimilation.

I am harmless and not a violant person as u are trying to portray me. YOUR TRUE colours of your racism is obvious. SO GET YOUR BOYS, and go rebuild the temple. And note we are not crying or yelling, let the Zionist unleash war, and let them continue to martyr Palestinians. And stop being or trying to PATRIONIZE THE Palestinians, they are not being slaughter, they love to be martyr for their dignity, honourable death. I say they are brave to stand up with stones to tanks.

I don't want a holy war, but u want one, because u and your radicals want to rebuild a temple. Suddenly u forgot that ABRAHAM CAME FROM UR TO CANAAN AND TO EGYPT AND THEN TO PALESTINE(CANAAN) and conviently u write off the PALESTINIANS LIKE THEY never existed.

U ARE JUST LIKE THE ZIONIST, WHO SAID THAT THEY KNOW OF NO Palestinians. ZIONISM is racism. No different than aparteid, no difference than making money from South African Diamonds.

Cheddi Jagan said on this first visit to New York as President after addressing the UN, in Queens, "The Israeli are using their and spending money on weapons to fight the poor Palestinians." God bless america, and I respect the foundation of this country and do not need to prove to u my aligance to this state.

posted October 11, 2000 07:37 AM            

quote:

---

Eddie:

our simplistic and passionate di******ion of me and as a Muslim fanatic is being over played, and your trying to pit me against blacks, all hold no truth, because u don't know me personally and what my morals and pricipals are. I Zionist i hate, not the State of Isreali and the Zionists like u are jUST PLANNING TO TEAR DOWN HARAM AL SHAIEF to built your so called profecy of building a temple.

Your opinion of me is rubbish, the jews, hindus, and blacks or the Sudanese in my life/family theirs opinion count. Not a naive and simplitic emotional belching of yours. Go take it somewhere else mr. righteous, u are trying to portray yourself as god here, go suck an orange.

My family has proven and me myself of assimilation.

I am harmless and not a violant person as u are trying to portray me. YOUR TRUE colours of your racism is obvious. SO GET YOUR BOYS, and go rebuild the temple. And note we are not crying or yelling, let the Zionist unleash war, and let them continue to martyr Palestinians. And stop being or trying to PATRIONIZE THE Palestinians, they are not being slaughter, they love to be martyr for their dignity, honourable death. I say they are brave to stand up with stones to tanks.

I don't want a holy war, but u want one, because u and your radicals want to rebuild a temple. Suddenly u forgot that ABRAHAM CAME FROM UR TO CANAAN AND TO EGYPT AND THEN TO PALESTINE(CANAAN) and conviently u write off the PALESTINIANS LIKE THEY never existed.

U ARE JUST LIKE THE ZIONIST, WHO SAID THAT THEY KNOW OF NO Palestinians. ZIONISM is racism. No different than aparteid, no difference than making money from South African Diamonds.

Cheddi Jagan said on this first visit to New York as President after addressing the UN, in Queens, "The Israeli are using their and spending money on weapons to fight the poor Palestinians." God bless america, and I respect the foundation of this country and do not need to prove to u my aligance to this state.

My gods and my prophets are not blonds and blue eyes, thank god that I have seen the light and I respect all religions and our organization here in Westchester deplore the ramsacking of Joseph't Thomb. My heart is clean because I speak my mind freely and say it like it is, because I don't go sleeping thinking of killing people or to destroy the DOME OF THE ROCK , like Eddie does to rebuild what he said is the prophecy of God. Who is the Fanatic????

---

Now you are giving us your testimony. As the black churches would say, "Preach it Burddah"

you still haven't answered my question
Was the Palestinian response justified in relation to Sharon's visit?

Terry had the guts to say no.
BK had to guts to say yes
and you are rambling like a madman.

posted October 11, 2000 10:40 AM         

BTW, I wish to clarify that the temple mount is accessible to all Christians, Jews and everyone. When I visited there, I was accompanied by an Israeli and several European Christian tourists, and we had asolutely no problems. There is even an Islamic museum up there that you pay a few dollars to see. People are even allowed INSIDE the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa mosque. If you look at any Israel tourist brochure, you will see temple mount as a tourist attraction and hours of visit. You are not allowed there when prayer is in session.

The reaction by the Palestinians was aimed against the murderer Sharon and his bloodthirsty army troops.

posted October 11, 2000 01:38 PM            

Does anybody know the significance of the two blue stripes on the Isreali flag. The answer to this question is the answer to the bigger issue with regards to Zionism.

The Zionists and right wing Christians have a fixed agenda that they are following and everyone else including Muslims are just running around in circles.

posted October 11, 2000 05:09 PM            

I said IT BEFORE AND WILL SAY IT AGAIN, MAYBE U MISSED it again, the stone throwing was more than jusfified, in fact they should have linched that mass murderer Ariel Sharon. Brief people to fight Tanks and planes with Stones.

The Zionist and their right wing friends have an agenda, which will enfulf the region in a war if they are allowed to pursue it.

posted October 11, 2000 05:26 PM            

then why didn't they lynch sharon. why did they vent their anger by mass rioting and vandalism.

if there is one thing you don't do in this life. that is provide defense for the actions of fools. you will look like one.

posted October 12, 2000 09:46 AM         

Explosive-Laden Raft Rams U.S. Ship in Yemen, 4 Dead

By Rawhi Abeidoh
DUBAI (Reuters) - An explosives-laden rubber raft rammed a U.S. destroyer and exploded in the Yemeni port of Aden on Thursday, killing four U.S. sailors and injuring 31, five seriously, U.S. Navy officials said.

Another sailor from the USS Cole, an Arleigh Burke-class vessel, was missing, Lieutenant-Commander Daren Pelkie, spokesman for the U.S. Navy's Fifth Fleet, which is based in Bahrain, told Reuters.

"A U.S. army major saw a rubber raft run into the ship, causing the explosion," Pelkie said. He said the destroyer had been refueling in Aden when the explosion occurred at 12:15 p.m. Bahrain time.

Asked if the explosion was deliberate, he said: "We don't know why a rubber raft would be carrying explosives."

"The explosion was big enough to cause a 20-foot by 40-foot" (six-by-12 meters) gash in the left side of the ship along the waterline and that the vessel was listing 40 degrees.

In Washington, Navy spokesperson Lieutenant Meghan Mariman said the U.S. sailors were trying "very hard to keep the ship afloat," adding that the vessel was carrying about 300 people.

Pelkie said flooding aboard the destroyer had been controlled and there were no reports of fire.

He said that no one had claimed responsibility for the blast.

Mariman said there was no indication why the Virginia-based destroyer, commissioned in 1996 and armed with standard missiles and torpedoes, was attacked while on a refuelling stop from the Red Sea to Bahrain in the Gulf.

YEMEN SAYS BLAST INSIDE SHIP Yemeni officials confirmed the explosion, but said it occurred inside the vessel.

"Preliminary information indicates that the explosion happened inside the ship in the supplies section," a Yemeni naval official, who declined to be identified, told Reuters.

But Lieutenant Terrence Dudley from the Fifth Fleet said: "We know it (the blast) occurred externally. An investigation is underway."

It was not immediately known if any people were aboard the rubber raft.

Anti-U.S. sentiments are running high in much of the Arab world, including Yemen, over Washington's perceived support of Israel during two weeks of fierce Israeli-Palestinian violence.

In Aden, witnesses said the explosion was so powerful that it rattled buildings near the port, one of the Arabian peninsula's largest.

They said Yemeni security officials rushed to the port where the U.S. ship was anchored.

Witnesses saw ambulances carrying the wounded, but reporters were not allowed to approach the scene.

(Additional reporting by Ghaida Ghantous)

posted October 12, 2000 09:53 AM         

Quote CNN:RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - Israeli helicopter gunships fired missiles at Palestinian targets in the West Bank city of Ramallah following the killing of two Israeli soldiers by a Palestinian mob, witnesses said.

At least two people were hurt in the attack on Palestinian President Yasser Arafat's headquarters and the police station where hours earlier hundreds of Palestinian youths had stabbed the two Israelis to death, police and witnesses said.

But the Palestinian leader, who also has a headquarters in self-ruled Gaza City, was not there. Witnesses said helicopters were also hovering over Arafat's Gaza headquarters.

GAZA (Reuters) - Palestinian President Yasser Arafat was unhurt in a series of Israeli helicopter attacks near his Gaza Strip headquarters, Palestinian security chief Mohammed Dahlan said Thursday.

``Arafat is fine and he is stronger than before,'' Dahlan told reporters, adding that the Palestinian leader was ``in a safe place.''

Earlier, Israeli helicopters attacked the Palestinian president's headquarters in the West Bank city of Ramallah after a mob killed two captured Israeli soldiers

------------------------------------------
"The United Nations' Children's Fund on Wednesday said at least 22 children and teen-agers have been killed in the crisis, and more than 1,000 wounded.

The violence has claimed nearly 100 lives -- only six of them Israelis."

---------------------------------------

And the peaceful Israelis are claiming the Palestinians are the aggressors. Hmmm, interesting! Seems to me they are instigating things further.

posted October 12, 2000 10:14 AM            

don't know about you, but I'm growing weary of Palestinian whining.

Yasser Arafat's government already controls the day-to-day lives of more than 90% of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza. With the U.S. urging them on, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak and his peace team recently offered Arafat and his people a full-fledged sovereignty deal that goes beyond anything proposed by any of Barak's predecessors. The Israelis even broke their longstanding taboo on sharing rule in Jerusalem.

So what does Arafat do? After refusing to sign the peace deal, he uses the ill-timed visit to a holy shrine by an Israeli opposition politician as the excuse to renew the intifadeh and then cries foul when Israeli troops defend themselves against flying stones and Molotov cocktails.

As one who once got hit by a Palestinian-thrown stone, I can tell you the stones are hard and dangerous and can be deadly.

Pushing children and teenagers into the front ranks of violent demonstrations is hardly a new Palestinian tactic. During the height of the intifadeh in the late 1980s, I witnessed the following: An Israeli detachment was standing guard along the road to Bethlehem. Suddenly a group of school-age Palestinian kids, some as young as 10, emerged from a nearby school and began pelting the soldiers with stones. They were warned by bullhorn to back off but continued, eventually adding Molotov cocktails to their barrage.

Finally, the Israelis fired tear gas, and when that failed to stop the kids, fired several rounds into the air. Within a few moments, all hell broke loose, and most of the demonstrators fled in terror. Then, and only then, their teachers appeared and began yelling in English, "Journalists! You see how the Israeli aggressors are killing our Palestinian children!"

My immediate reaction was, Well, why don't you tell the kids to stop throwing stones? But, hey, what better way to garner international sympathy then to send kids out to battle soldiers?

The deaths of recent days — especially the TV-recorded shooting of that 12-year-old boy in Gaza — have been horrendous. But now everyone — from the U.S. secretary of state to the Russian foreign minister to the United Nations secretary general — is trying to herd the two sides back to the peace table.

The problem is that while Arafat thinks he has won new sympathy around the world for his cause, he actually has created harm and havoc among those non-Palestinians who are the most important to that cause: his Israeli interlocutors.

Even the most dovish of Israelis were shocked by the unnecessary ferocity of Arafat's response to Ariel Sharon's Temple Mount visit. Even the most peace-loving were alarmed by the sight of masked and heavily armed Palestinians parading through the streets of Gaza and Nablus shooting their guns in the air — and then at Israeli settlers and soldiers.

And who in Israel wasn't outraged when Arafat refused to call on his people to refrain from violence? Are these Israel's partners for peace? Are these the people with whom Israel is supposed to share the sacred city of Jerusalem?

Instead of calling for an international investigation into who started the violence, Arafat's people should be considering what they can do to restore their severely damaged credibility.

Original Publication Date: 10/12/00

posted October 12, 2000 11:15 AM         

Hey B. What did the dovish ones say when they saw the brave Israeli soldier pump 4 bullets into the terrified little 12 year old cowering and crying in fear?

That incident alone is mainly responsible for the state of things now.
Apparently Palestinian children's lives have no value. 100 killed, 6 Israelis.
There was a time when I supported the legality of a state of Israel within Palestine. No more!! That incident alone was the turning point and clearly depicts the arrogant, racist, brutal attitudes of Israelis.
I say kick their white mangy asses out of Palestine by whatever means possible.
Their sole purpose is to decimate the Palestinian population. I say to the Palestinians, if you are going to die, take one (preferably more) of the enemy with you.
Those bastards have had it good for 52 long years. Now the racist bastards ( oops dovish pacifists) are trying to kill Arafat.
It's time for the boot to be on the other foot. 100 to 6 is disproportionate. We have to equalize it. My moral and financial support will be going to Palestine, until those racist murderers are history.

----------
Quote:
"As one who once got hit by a Palestinian-thrown stone, I can tell you the stones are hard and dangerous and can be deadly."
--------
Hehehe, wimpy racist bastard afraid of stones. What if it were bullets like your dovish brothers use?

posted October 12, 2000 11:25 AM            

if the elderly palestinians were responsible enough they would have restrained their kids from going out into the streets and committing criminal acts against property and people.

and don't try to reinvent what went on. don't blame the death of that 12 yr on this insurrection. the insurrection began with a visit.

posted October 12, 2000 11:37 AM         

100 for 100.

Palestinians by Jewish law, have to up the ante.
I look forward with antipication to see that deficit reduced.

Quote:
"lets face the facts Arafat had a sweet deal for peace laid out on the table, and his bluff was called. he didn't put his signature because he did not want peace, he wanted the israelis out."
-----
Why are they then trying to assassinate Arafat? The sweet little doves don't want his signature anymore?

posted October 12, 2000 06:05 PM            

The Zionists have no respect for Palestinians, in fact they refuse to recongnize that there exist a people called Philistinians. In fact GOLDA MEIR, the racist went public denying THAT THERE EXISTED PALESTINIANS.

YEARS OF OCCUPATION and brutality, living in refugee camps, terrorism against Palestinians, torture, confiscation of property and land: the pressure cooker is about to explode.

Only America supports then basically, even the Europeans refursed to let them be part of the European Block in the UN. Only when Palestinians have a sovereign homeland will Isreal be accepted in the world.

Guyana urges parties in Mid-East conflict to avoid further confrontation

THE Guyana Government yesterday urged the sides in the latest Mid-East conflict to avoid further confrontation and return to the negotiating table "with a view to finding a peaceful solution to the problems which separate them."

In a statement, the Foreign Ministry said the Government of Guyana was dismayed over the recent clashes between the Israeli armed forces and Palestinians in Jerusalem, Palestine and even inside Israel.

"The Government of Guyana deplores the loss of life owing to the excessive and unnecessary use of force by the Israeli armed forces".

The statement continued:

"The Government of Guyana extends its condolences to all the Arab and Israeli bereaved families and wishes a speedy recovery to all those who have suffered injuries.

The situation in the Middle East, particularly as regards Israeli-Palestinian relations, has deteriorated to such a point where, with increasing tension and violence, not only is the peace process seriously threatened, but there is also now the serious risk of an escalation in the conflict.

In support of the recent Security Council Resolution 1322, of October 7,2000, the Government of Guyana deplores the provocation carried out at Al-Haram Al Sharif in Jerusalem on September 28, and the subsequent violence there and throughout the territories occupied by Israel since 1967, which resulted in more than 80 Palestinian deaths.

These tragic incidents should be fully investigated in order to avoid a recurrence.

In this context, the Government of Guyana wishes to encourage all concerned parties, both within and outside the region, including the Secretary General of the United Nations, to do their utmost to secure reconciliation between the Israeli and the Palestinian sides.

The Government of Guyana is convinced that various resolutions, which have been adopted by the UN General Assembly and the Security Council in relation to the Palestinian question, as well as the accords which have been reached directly between Israel and Palestine, provide an ample framework for pursuing the search for agreement.

The Government of Guyana therefore calls on the parties involved to avoid further confrontation and return to the negotiating table with a view to finding a peaceful resolution to the problems which separate them.

As a member of the United Nations and its Standing Committee on the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, Guyana will not fail to work for the cause of peace and justice in the Middle East, so that all people in the region may live within secured borders and thus be allowed to enjoy the full fruits of peace and development."

posted October 12, 2000 10:51 PM            

1. Despite all the so called wealth of the Muslim Bretheren and their barrels of $40 oil, the Palestinians continue to live in squalor and throw rocks. Jansher talks about his Mughal emperor blood lines and of the rich culture of Muslims and alludes to Palestinian aid but he cannot pose one answer as to where this money goes and why these people exist in such poverty. The fact is that the Palestinians are USED by the likes of Arafat and other demagogues like Jansher in the course of their Holy Jihad against Israel.

2. Not mentioned here is the fact that many Palestinians live and work in Israel itself. They coexist peacefully with their Jewish counterparts. How can a state that is branded as 'racist' by you fellas here excercise such tolerance to these Palestinians? I suspect your answers will contain the words 'sell outs', a term that is germain to fanatics such as Jansher.

3. As the 2 articles posted by Bonus mention, the last year has seen an unprecedented set of concessions and moves by Israel toward peace. That terrorist Arafat sat there and saw that the end was near and when his bluff was called, he walked away from the peace agreements and returned to what he knows best - inciting hatred in the hearts of children so he can continue to wage his Holy Jihad war against Israel. It is absolutely clear that he will accept nothing short of annihilating every Jew from the Middle East.

4. Let's say Sharon's visit to the Temple was in bad taste. Do the Palestinians have the right to respond with violence and riots? It seems some of you Palestinian supporters here are suggesting that this barbaric response was appropriate and that these people are not capable of any better. The fact is that the Hezbollah and other fanatics used this as an excuse to reignite the flames of their Jihad war against Israel.

5. In many of the posts here the violence against Israel is being justified. Jansher the fanatic says fight to the death and fully supports the Jihad. Well now you got one, so deal with it and stop crying. Israeli soldiers have been killed and dragged thru the streets as if this is 7th Century Arabia. The word primitive comes to mind. The fanatics have even attacked a US destroyer that was refueling in the region and killed at least 6 American soldiers. Let us remember who struck the first blow here, because Jansher will certainly be whining when the US responds.

In short, the Muslims wanted a Jihad and now they got a full scale one. As such, it is no concern of Israel or the US whether they have arms to fight or food to feed themselves. This is the harsh reality of war. One would assume that before the fanatics like Jansher start screaming Jihad that they would assess their position and evaluate their risks. Apparently such a strategy doesn't exist in a Jihad.

The condemnation from the rest of the world is coming in against Arafat. It is encouraging that people see him for the monster he is, putting children with rocks on the front lines to fight his Jihad. Both he and the late Assad of Syria saw to it that teaching hatred of the Jew was part of their school curriculum. These poor children know no better - victims of a madman bent on a Jihad.

Today in NY over 15,000 people gathered by the UN to condemn this fool, with politicians from both sides in full attendance. As Ed Koch put it - '...he will suffer the consequences'. Peace awaits at a bargaining table, not by throwing rocks at missiles. Thus far Arafat has shown that he nor his people have what it takes to conduct themselves in a civil manner and use the worldwide support they get to seek a peaceful and diplomatic end to this crisis. Instead, they opt for a Holy Jihad with the fools like Jansher following in full stride screaming Allah W'Akbar whilst their children die beside them.

Eddie

posted October 13, 2000 12:18 AM            

The Middle East problem began in 1897

Dear Editor,
The Palestine problem that has plagued the Middle East throughout the 20th century might be said to have had its beginnings in 1897 at the meeting of the First Zionist Congress in Basle, Switzer-land. At the meeting a resolution was passed favouring a national home for the Jews in Palestine. The British gave their imprimatur to the notion in 1917 in the Balfour declaration. In effect the Palestine problem was born. The Jewish influx was great enough to alarm the Arab inhabitants. Britain was responsible for the regulation of Jewish entry into Palestine and to maintain public order. In May, 1948 Britain simply disengaged itself from the situation and the war between Jews and Arabs began. An organised effort by the Mufti of Jerusalem to oppose Jewish immigration and the British mandate led to civil unrest, riots, raids and retaliation and the Arabs at first attacked Jews then Jewish farming settlements injuring individuals. They also had raids against the British. Eventually they organised themselves into terrorist organisations to confront both Jews and British. Britain decided to fight terror with terror and thus terrorism in Palestine became three sided. The Stern gang and the Irgun were among the well-known terrorist groups started by Israel. Lord Moyne and Count Folke Bernadotte were assassinated in the late 1940s. Such acts had their political effects, including benefits not only with Palestine but the international community.
Terrorism is universally condemned but just as universally employed. It is the natural weapon of the weak. Terrorism, with random and unexpected targets, often leads to anguish and despair among the populations.
Responses to terrorism are often emotional and are usually out of proportion to the real effects of the acts themselves. The acts of terrorism perpetrated by both sides are too numerous to mention. I lost three friends from those acts, one Israeli - two Arabs. Until some accommodation between Arabs and Israeli governments comes about such acts will continue.
General Rafael Eitan in 1981 said that he wanted to ask the American taxpayer "why are you giving us the rope with which to hang ourselves?" It is felt in many circles that the Israelis do not want a Palestinian state, what they wanted for themselves, they deny to another people.

posted October 13, 2000 12:44 AM            

It's amusing how you keep posting these glowing endorsements of Palestine by Guyana. I would think you should know by now that no one gives a rat's ass what Guyana thinks. After all, it is a poor, starving nation that has to resort to begging to survive. Heaven knows it can't even tend to its own affairs. That's what YOU should be worried about.

I have no obsession with you. You've been exposed as a sick fanatic who appeals to emotionalism rather than good sense and reasoning. It's not that you're incapable of it, but rather you choose to incite.

I can tell from your tone that you're getting ready to tell me about my n igger roots and about my mother etc just like you did years ago. You can't change and it shows.

posted October 13, 2000 09:14 AM         

Eddie,
I said it before. Get out from that whitewashed rock you living under. Go to Israel and confirm what you are claiming! Go and see the minefields, barbed wire and poverty imposed by occupation. I have gone, I saw, and I have concluded. The racist murderers treat Palestinians like dogs. The police randomly beat Palestinians in the street. They are forced to live like animals under Israeli occupation. They are prevented from access to many parts of their lands. And answer the question, "Where is Palestine?"

If you want to quote the white pro-Israeli Americans, feel free to do so.

The U.S. has gone against world opinion in the U.N. refusing to place blame on the Jewish murderers. If they wish to sleep with dogs, they must expect fleas.

If you need someone to blame for the attack on the destroyer, blame the murdering Israelis. They have instigated this violence all along. The brutal cold blooded killing of that 12 year old was seen by the world. That more than anything else has ired the Arab world. They realize that Palestinian lives have no value, only the white man's life is of value. Well, guess what? Did you know the Palestinians are also people? People without a land. Palestinians but no Palestine. Did you know they are actually humans and not dogs like the Israelis claim?

posted October 13, 2000 09:25 AM            

Mideast Peace
Process Is Dead

hy did the Palestinians begin a war with Israel just as it offered them almost everything they demanded? Who is Yasser Arafat — the leader who shapes Palestinian action or the servant of the emotion and frustration of his people? Where do Israel and its friends go from here? Is peace between Palestinians and Israelis possible — permanent peace based on reality, not a fleeting truce based on delusion?

These questions and the answers to them from Israel and the U.S. will decide whether the Muslim Mideast will choose another anti-Israeli, anti-American war. They will also decide whether Israel will survive as a Jewish state.

For the last seven years, since the Oslo meetings, many Israelis have tried to avoid the unavoidable — the consequences of giving away land and security in exchange for one set of quickly broken promises after another. Now with Palestinian rioting, with Palestinian police wounding, killing and kidnapping Israeli soldiers, and with Palestinians falling wounded or dead to Israeli bullets, pretense time is over. The moral responsibility for what happens will rest in part on the Israeli and U.S. officials and journalists who keep denying their peace-now policy is fatally flawed — it is land for no peace — and the Oslo peace process is dead.

Whatever the hatreds that fill them, the Palestinians have been consistent and strong in their two most powerful motives: the takeover of all Israeli territory and the elimination of the Jewish state.

American policy on Israel during the Clinton administration has been directed by a group of Mideast specialists, most of them Jewish, who cling to their belief in Palestinian goodwill. As late as last week, the administration refused to use the veto power to kill a United Nations resolution that found Israel guilty of provoking the war because Ariel Sharon and other Knesset members visited ground holy to Jews and Muslims.

Beginning in 1993 with the Oslo agreement on "reciprocity" and "confidence building," Israeli Labor governments agreed to a Palestinian state. They arranged for billions in revenues and international loans with which to buy guns for the 40,000-man army and provide sufficient graft for Arafat's officials. Labor prime ministers gave away all of Gaza and about 95% of the West Bank and obligingly shaped borders that Israeli generals, including the man who is now prime minister, had considered essential to its armed forces.

In turn, Arafat and his Palestinian Authority were supposed to end the terrorism and ceaseless Palestinian propaganda against Israelis and all Jews. The Israelis delivered land. The Palestinians delivered nothing.

Ehud Barak, once a brave general who became a sadly weak prime minister, secretly offered Arafat some sovereignty in Jerusalem, blasphemy to observant Jews, a deadly insult to almost all less religious Jews.

Arafat staged a walkout because he said he wanted sovereignty over the whole city.

Why did he take steps he knew would lead to war — permitting the stone-throwing, allowing Palestinian police to fire on Israeli soldiers? He knows that Israelis want peace far more than he does, that is the reason.

The wounded on both sides bleed and die. But the Palestinians fight with passion for what they feel is theirs. They know that the militarily weaker side can win, and often has, as long as it has the passion and friends to support it. Arafat knows this kind of thing has happened before with Israel — negotiations, a staged Palestinian stalemate, a fomented battle, then more negotiations and concessions to the Palestinians.

Soon, Palestinians and U.S. peace-now groups will begin whispering about starting negotiations again. Israeli agreement to that would be the worst thing that could happen. Round and round would the nonmerry-go-round go, dropping off pieces of Israel.

To finish work on a treaty that has already failed miserably would weaken the morale and power of Israeli forces and encourage a combined Arab army to drool over its dream plan — the Final Assault on Israel.

What to do now? End negotiations with Palestinians for a year or so and cancel concessions still cancelable.

Palestine would declare its independence. Let it. With the support of the United States, perhaps the Palestinians might recognize their only real hope, which is that the kind of revolution that gave freedom to the Serbs might bring an end to the Arafat dictatorship.

The Israelis could take the risk of negotiations with a Palestine that's on the road to democracy, the only kind of negotiating "partner" that will not hide a Kalashnikov in its robes.

posted October 13, 2000 10:45 AM         

- Labor prime ministers gave away all of Gaza and about 95% of the West Bank

posted October 13, 2000 10:51 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by eddie:
Today in NY over 15,000 people gathered by the UN to condemn this fool, with politicians from both sides in full attendance. As Ed Koch put it - '...he will suffer the consequences'. Peace awaits at a bargaining table, not by throwing rocks at missiles.
Eddie

---

The 15,000 people you mentioned were all Hasidic Jews. How come you missed the "rainbow" of people (mostly Americans and Palestinian supporters of all color) the day before in their protest over the throwing rocks at missiles war??

posted October 13, 2000 11:01 AM         

Quote ABC News:

Arab World Issues First Major Warning Over Mideast Violence

In a rare public demonstration by women, demonstrators march down a street in Jiddah, Saudi Arabia, chanting anti-Israeli slogans and holding photographs of Jerusalem’s Al-Aqsa mosque. (AP Photo)

By John K. Cooley

A T H E N S, Greece, Oct. 10 — Saudi Arabia has been never much of a combatant in past Arab-Israeli wars, but it has become one of Israel’s toughest critics in the current Palestinian-Israeli crisis. And now, it has become the first major Arab state to warn of possible action against the Jewish state.
The warning, from Saudi Crown Prince Abdullah bin Abdel Aziz, was coupled with an assurance that the kingdom would not use oil as a leverage point against the West, as it had when tensions heated up in the past.
In October 1973, Saudi King Faisal sanctioned the Arab oil embargo to punish the West for its support of Israel in the Arab-Israeli war.
Prince Abdullah, who effectively runs the Saudi realm for his ailing elder brother King Fahd, spoke Monday while visiting Palestinian wounded hospitalized in Riyadh. Saudi broadcasters quoted him as saying the kingdom would “respond” if Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak carried out pledges to use force against Syria and Lebanon if border violence flares again.
“Barak must think carefully,” said Abdullah, who generally avoids political statements and weighs his public words carefully, “before taking the slightest intolerable step … and no one can imagine that the Saudi kingdom and the entire Arab-Islamic nation would remain still.”
The Saudi crown prince did not specify what action the world’s largest crude oil producer might take.
Other Arab Countries Join In
Apparently trying to match its bigger neighbor and rival Saudi Arabia, Yemen’s leadership has publicly proposed sending weapons and armed volunteers to help the Palestinians.
Past Israeli-Saudi friction, mediated by the United States, has occurred over small Saudi-claimed islands in the Red Sea and the Straits of Tiran, on the southern approaches to Israel’s port of Eilat. Israel occupied one Saudi-owned island, but later evacuated it after the 1967 war.
In early Arab-Israel conflicts, from 1948 onward, Saudi military contingents either were not mobilized, or in the 1967 and 1973 wars, did not make it to the front lines. However, Saudi armed forces were deployed in Syria in 1973 and suffered some casualties.
Saudi Arabia cut its oil exports to punish Britain and France for helping Israel in the 1956 Suez war, and to hurt the United States and other Western nations for the same reason in the 1967 war. Temporary but severe Saudi and other Arab and Iranian oil cutbacks helped to more than double world oil prices in 1973.
Prince Abdullah was quoted on Monday as saying Saudi Arabia would not use oil as leverage point during the present crisis. “It would not be in the interest of world oil consumers, our friends or ourselves,” he added.
In Saudi Arabia’s almost equally oil-wealthy neighbor Kuwait, which expelled Palestinians and derided Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat for siding with Iraq during the 1990-91 Gulf conflict, rulers were among the first to send help to the Palestinian wounded and homeless in the latest round of Israeli-Palestinian violence.

A Call to Freeze Ties With Israel
For the fourth day today, thousands of Kuwaitis and other Arabs marched in Kuwait City to protest normalization of ties with Israel by other Arab leaders, a theme heard throughout the Arab Gulf states. Calls for a freeze on all ties with the Jewish state struck especially sensitive nerves in Qatar and Oman, which have permitted Israeli trade missions — but not diplomatic ones — to operate in their capitals.
Bahrain, Qatar, Oman and the United Arab Emirates are also sites of American military and naval facilities and pre-positioned U.S. equipment. U.S. and British air forces based in the Gulf and Saudi Arabia regularly patrol over Iraq, attacking what they say are air defense targets there.
All of the Arab monarchies, as well as Yemen, have agreed to attend an Arab summit on Oct. 21-22, possibly to be held in Cairo, to discuss the conflict. Iraq, not invited to previous Arab summits since the Gulf war, was asked to this one. President Saddam Hussein, who never leaves Iraq, is likely to send one of his vice presidents.

Transportation Issues
Israel’s closure of the Palestinians’ Gaza airport after an attack on Israeli workers there has made it necessary to ship blood donations, medicines and other emergency supplies through the land border between Egypt and Gaza, and over the Jordan River bridges from Jordan. In Jordan’s capital, Amman, local authorities have defended the Israeli Embassy and U.S. installations against angry demonstrators.
Saudi Arabia led recent cash donations. King Fahd and Crown Prince Abdullah contributed $10.7 million to the Palestinian cause, Saudi media have reported. Billionaire businessman Prince Walid bin Talal bin Abdel Aziz, who owns properties and has large investments in the United States, gave another $2.4 million.
Sultan Qabus of Oman ordered funds collected and medical aid for the Palestinians. In Abu Dhabi, the UAE government said a first group of 50 severely wounded Palestinians would arrive by hospital plane Wednesday for treatment. All UAE state employees were directed to contribute a day’s pay for the “brave intifada,” or uprising, Dubai radio reported. Oct. 14 has been declared “Palestine Day” in all UAE schools.
Satellite television stations, including the independent and often nonconformist Al-Jazira channel in Qatar, beamed insistent demands for actions to support the Palestinians into Gulf homes and schools.

The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

posted October 13, 2000 11:19 AM            

quote:

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Good armies gain victory then go to war, bad armies go to war then try to win.

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posted October 13, 2000 11:48 AM            

Is the highest elected black official in NY - Carl McCall a Hasidic Jew? Is Hillary Clinton or Rick Lazio? How about Pataki or Giuliani? Well there were all there condemning Arafat. As one would expect most of the crowd was Jewish since the issue is in their homeland, but it didn't stop others from joining with them.

Terry,

No one here is denying the Palestinians a right to exist. I've said before, there is a brutal history on BOTH sides and if there is going to be any resolution it will come at a bargaining table. Now the article Bonus posted documents all the concessions granted to Arafat. Israeli PM Barak was chastised by his own people for granting such concessions.

It is quite clear that Arafat doesn't want peace. After reading seeing your tantrums here I'm inclined to believe that you don't either. You guys are only interested in the destruction of the Jews, and that's why I said this is not a political matter, but a Holy Jihad on the part of the Arab world. You can't have your cake and eat it too, so enjoy the Jihad and all the 'amenities' that come with it. Many more lives will be lost in this foolish endeavor.

By the way, pointing me to a source of funding the Palestinians is one thing, but I really question it since despite all this money being given these folks have only rocks to fight with. Either you Arabs are blowing smoke again, or your Arab bretheren squandered the money meant to help the Palestinians.

One question Terry. Are you willing to give your life for this cause you strongly believe in? I ask the question because we all know you Arabs consider America as the Great Satan. Therefore, it is not inconceivable that you may lose your life on the subways one day compliments of an Arab bombing. You know that's the next step.

posted October 13, 2000 11:51 AM         

Can’t you guys wait until next summer to “Free Palestine”? I bought 300 gallons of oil yesterday and it cost me over $400.00, and it’s not even winter. Tell your Arab brothers we will support them wholeheartedly in their cause but they must be sympathetic to their brothers in the cold countries and wait until summer 2001 to make their move.

On a more serious note the “Freeing of Palestine” as it currently stand will come at a heavy price. This could turn out to be a pretty bloody conflict with far reaching economic disasters. Countries like Guyana who is already being squeezed by Venezuela can seriously come to a standstill if the price of oil skyrockets.

If this peace process falls apart the political climate in the Middle East will become quite volatile. As you know Jordan, Syria and Saudi Arabia are now govern by some very young and inexperience head of states.
We do not know how these young leaders will react in the time of crisis so we have to pray there is no crisis.

I know you feel passionately about the cause of the Palestinians but I believe a peaceful solution is the way to go instead of the alternative War In The East – Bro. Bob famous words.

posted October 13, 2000 12:24 PM         

All is fair in love and war...man...sorry.
Maybe Clinton will release some more reserves.

Bonus and Eddie
War is always a last resort. I think 52 years of haggling and racist rhetoric is enough. Time for action.
Israel has always played the bully backed by the U.S. They kill children and laugh about it. The Israeli are no better than the Nazis. How did we deal with the Nazis? By War.
If these arrogant racists want to fight, then they will get a fight.
There is something you don't realize. The Arabs are willing to sacrifice their lives for their freedom, and they do it every day from Israeli bullets. Are the racists prepared to die for their racist cause? The cowardly jews whine when they get hit by a rock, and are big men when they fire rockets on civilians. Let us see who is braver when rockets start to fly at them.

posted October 13, 2000 03:18 PM         

eddie - if you haven't heard listen for the evening news for the latest show of support for the Palestinians.