posted October 03, 2000 11:56 AM         

Since the white European Jews forced themselves into Palestine in 1948, expelling their dark skinned brothers into refugee camps, the western world has in typical fashion backed the racist actions of their white counterparts.

While on one hand condemning Hitler for his treatment of the white Jews, the West has actually supported white Israel in its planned extermination of the dark skinned Palestinian race. By the way, where is Palestine?????

Yeah, just wondering what the Guyana government thinks about this.

posted October 03, 2000 12:34 PM         

Of course, this has nothing to do with the human rights and racist issues that occur in the mideast.

posted October 03, 2000 01:52 PM         

However, if in voicing an opinion now and the Israeli lobby apply pressures against loans to our people you would be the first one to condemn this government for neglect of its peoples. The Marxist accusation against Cheddi being milked by ROAR is no different from this in certain respects.

posted October 03, 2000 03:53 PM         

It is interesting to see the Venezuelan government is preparing to proceed with criminal charges against Ford and Firestone, something the U.S. federal government and the congress have been dragging their foot on. I believe the Venezuelan government can prove one or both of these companies were involved in a cover-up and should be able to bring criminal charges. Who they will go after remains to be seen.

If the Venezuelan government is willing to play hardball with U.S. / U.S. entities could you imagine what type of ball they probably will pursue with Guyana. The current and future governments of Guyana must start working diligently on a clear and comprehensive policy pertaining to our border issues.

Mike

posted October 03, 2000 03:55 PM         

On a different note you mentioned the Marxist accusation against Cheddi being milked by ROAR.

posted October 03, 2000 03:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike:
We should be more concern with policies addressing our border issues than foreign policy relating to the Middle East which no country, so far, can even propose a workable compromise, including the G7 countries.

It is interesting to see the Venezuelan government is preparing to proceed with criminal charges against Ford and Firestone, something the U.S. federal government and the congress have been dragging their foot on. I believe the Venezuelan government can prove one or both of these companies were involved in a cover-up and should be able to bring criminal charges. Who they will go after remains to be seen.

If the Venezuelan government is willing to play hardball with U.S. / U.S. entities could you imagine what type of ball they probably will pursue with Guyana. The current of future governments of Guyana must start working diligently on a clear and comprehensive policy pertaining to our border issues.

Mike

---

posted October 03, 2000 04:17 PM         

quote:

---

Take a look at the once invincible racist South Africa, and look at ethnically cleansed Serbia today.

---

In Guyana, ROAR actively advocates "ethnically cleansing" areas to posit "cultural states" and consociational federalism obviating rule by individual choice and a strong executive. The people lap this racist dogma as fodder for cultural preservation despite the fact it legalizes ethnic boundaries and creates the possibility of religious factionalism against a Hindu right wing advocacy.

You are right; the world is changing but somehow we remain mired in simplistic political squabbles despite our great natural wealth and small population. I also agree with you that human rights and anti racist sentiments dominate the world social mood but this is set by western states that fostered it in the first place.

These powerful nations do not care about us or the loans to our nation would not have been so hard to come by. The US can by one voice of admonition to political groups, quell the rancor and put us on a path to peace. They simply do not see us until we cascade into violent reactionary movements and begin killing our own. Then we are classified as problems states with intractable ethnic strife and then they may intercede as "big brother". You are also right about our approach to Venezuela but we exacerbate the problem by being reluctant to address Amerindian complaints about mining and logging. Meanwhile these multinationals get more concessions and tax breaks than the ordinary Guyanese who are keeping the economy afloat with the barrel subsidy and aid to families.

posted October 03, 2000 05:12 PM         

I am not stating the we should not be concern with the problems in the Middle East or problems plaguing other countries such as AIDS, famine, genocide, ethnic cleansings, religious wars and other human atrocities.

However, the Guyana government MUST focus on addressing the chronic problems which are crippling our economy, lowering our moral fiber and sinking the country slowly into an abyss of no return.

The building and strengthening of Guyana should be the top priority, with every other non-Guyana related event taking on a somewhat lesser priority. Once we are in the position of assisting our fellow sister nations I would gladly support the Government efforts in doing so but at this juncture in our history we should stay focus on building a strong Guyana.

Mike

posted October 03, 2000 05:31 PM            

Terry feels for the suffering of the arab palestinians in israel simply because they share the same religion, while on the other hand Guyana is mired in poverty.

posted October 03, 2000 06:54 PM            

Guyana is a member of the 56 member Organization of Islamic Conference, naturally it supports resulotion 242 among others calling for Palestinian refugees to return to Palestine.

The Diplomats can shed some light on recent polocies.

PRESS RELEASE
INTERNATIONAL DAY OF SOLIDARITY WITH THE
PALESTINIAN PEOPLE - NOVEMBER 30

The Government and people of the Republic of Guyana wholeheartedly reaffirm their solidarity with the Palestinian people in their struggle for their inalienable rights as they observe this year’s International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People.

Guyana’s commitment, which pre-dated its 1976 membership of the Committee on the Exercise of the Inalienable Rights to the Palestinian People in accordance with General Assembly decision 31/318 of December 22, 1976, remains unwavering. The Palestinian people should advance to full political independence and enjoy their inalienable rights of self determination and freedom.

Guyana is carefully monitoring the Middle East Peace Process and the implementation of all arrangements in accordance with relevant Security Council Resolutions. A comprehensive and just solution of the problem of the Middle East cannot be secured until the question of Palestine is resolved.

Resumption of Peace talks is indeed heartening, reviving the hope that a just, comprehensive settlement and lasting peace in conformity with the United Nations Charter may be achieved in the near future. This is notwithstanding the current seemingly unsurmountable obstacles. The evidence of political will on all sides augurs well for the future.

MINISTRY OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS

posted October 03, 2000 06:59 PM            

The aricle below is from:
www.irna.com www.khaleejtimes.com

posted October 03, 2000 07:03 PM            

By Aviv Lavie
Ha'aretz, Tuesday, October 3, 2000
http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/htmls/kat22_2.htm

The footage documenting the death of Mohammed al Duri, the 12-year-old
Palestinian boy who was killed in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, ranks as one of
the most terrifying films ever made in the Middle East.

As the images were shown on Israeli television, Channel One correspondent
Shlomi Eldar provided this commentary: "Dozens of Palestinians are throwing
stones from behind a brick wall, looking to stir emotions. Otherwise, it's hard
to understand what a father and son are doing, ducking below the shelter. The
father and son definitely weren't trapped on the battlefield by accident. And
that's how the cameras documented it: Dozens of Palestinians are around,
yelling and giving instructions to the father about how he should provide cover
for his young boy. The boy panics, and cries. There's a finger pointing at the
[IDF] soldiers' post. And, that's it, here's how it ends; the boy is killed,
and the father loses consciousness."

That is what Eldar, a senior Israeli television correspondent and editor, had
to say about the killing which took place before his very eyes. Yet the issue
isn't a personal one, concerning only Eldar. The text of his narration is a
representative sample of Israeli media coverage of Palestinian affairs, and a
good example of the ailments that afflict that coverage.

The text merits analysis, line by line. According to Eldar, the father and son
weren't trapped at the site by accident. In fact, the father later explained
that they had gone out to purchase a car, and crossed the road at the wrong
moment. They were "looking to stir emotions," according to Eldar. Well, the
images of them clinging for their lives behind a wall certainly achieved that.
Eldar's ambiguous phrases convey the impression that the father and son, with
dozens of others, were "throwing stones from behind a brick wall." This was
another way of saying that they were to blame for what happened to them. They
started it. Yes indeed, the 12-year-old boy was also a guilty party. And the
final part of the text: "Here's how it ends..." Here's how what ends? An
all-out battle? A work accident? Or maybe cold-blooded murder.

There is no coherent classification of what the viewer has seen. Nor is there a
minimal display of emotion on the narrator's part with respect to the
horrifying
circumstances of this terrible death. Nor is there a hint of criticism leveled
at the indiscriminating IDF gunfire. The boy is killed, the father loses
consciousness. You know the story, that's how it happens in war.

Throughout the Rosh Hashanah holiday, local televisions broadcast these
blood-curdling images, yet I heard no commentator bothering to identify by
name the boy who was shot by our troops. It wasn't until Monday's newspapers
came out that we learned that his name was Mohammed al Duri. As a matter of
fact, there's nothing new here: Our victims count as news stories, their
victims are mere numbers.

This insensitivity regarding the fate of people on the other side is a
journalistic failure. At the time this article went to press, none of the local
media organs had produced a coherent account of this rare, tragic incident
captured by a French film crew. Systematic, investigative reporting in this
case should present detailed testimony given by IDF soldiers and by
Palestinians who were at the scene, by the French journalists who filmed it and
by the victim's father (at least, the father's account was aired on
television). It should provide a clear picture of the scene of the killing,
along the lines of the extensive coverage lavished on the failed Duvdevan
operation a month ago. It should explain who fired at whom, and why. This
entire story, which is stocked with dramatic, and tragic, importance, has been
neglected by the local media.

In recent days, facts and opinions have become so entangled in Israeli media
reports that it has become impossible to distinguish between them. The account
of the sequence of events which has been supported virtually across the board
in the media is that Yasser Arafat initiated the violence. By this theory, the
PA
chairman willed the violence to break out; and if he wants it to, it will end.
With the exception of a report by Amira Hass carried by Ha'aretz, virtually no
journalist challenged this interpretation.

The prevailing view is, of course, legitimate as a hypothesis. It could very
well be the correct account. But there is a world of difference separating a
hypothesis from a fact. Whoever submits the view as a supposition ought to make
clear that it is an opinion; whoever presents the view as fact has to cite his
or her sources.

One after the other, news correspondents and analysts alike are declaring
emphatically that Arafat started it all. How do they know that this is the
case?
What facts do they have to support this view? Do they have in hand minutes of
meetings in which Arafat gave this or that order? Are they relying on
Palestinian sources who heard statements made by the PA Chairman himself?

The accepted interpretation serves Israel's political interests and it's not
hard to guess how the account reached local journalists. Beyond the fact that
Israeli journalists willingly turn themselves into spokesmen for the government
by espousing its line, they are also leveling a highly serious accusation at
Arafat, implying that he cynically sacrificed dozens of his people on the
political altar to score some points in the negotiations. Perhaps there's truth
to this view - after all, we're not talking about a leader built out of
the most righteous human components. And yet the accusation is sufficiently
serious as to demand thorough evidentiary grounding before being presented to
the public as a fact. Would anyone dare to hurl comparable accusations at Ehud
Barak? And, by the way, has anyone bothered to try to get a response from the
PA chairman?

As always happens during such times of violence and strife, the Israeli media
is functioning in part as a spokesman for the defense establishment. Major
General Giora Eiland, head of the IDF's Operations Directorate, is given
extensive camera time by Channel Two's news studio; he and other ranking IDF
officers say what they have to say about the current events; and when they
leave the studio, television news defense correspondents Roni Daniel and Alon
Ben David say exactly the same things. Then the commentators ridicule
Palestinian media organs for broadcasting militaristic content all day long.
But at least there the media doesn't try to maintain a facade of journalistic
objectivity.

During the holiday, the media appeared to be in a stupor. Senior television
news presenters weren't called to the studio to describe the events; the fact
that the country was burning from one end to another wasn't reflected by a
significant increase in media reporting. This turned the Internet into the
prime
information source for those who didn't want to wait for the holiday to end to
obtain news about battle scenes. Normally the radio is a leading media
alternative to the Internet; but over Rosh Hashanah, the radio stations also
operated in low gear.

posted October 03, 2000 07:14 PM            

If events in the Middle East does not matter to some of you, thats fine, but it matters to 13% Mulims in Guyana. And yes Guyana has benefitted heavly from the rich Middle EAst, should it side with Isreal, no. Guyana knows better. It was under Burnham that Guyana BROKE RELATIONS SHIP WITH ISREAL. And Guyana supported the infamous UN resolution which branded Zionism as Racism. And Guyana continues to even sponsors pro-Palestinian resolutions in the UN.

YES PALESTINE DOES MATTER FOR IF Venezuela or any other state should invade or occupied Guyana's land it WILL HAVE A CONSISTENT policy of support Human Rights and Fair Play.

posted October 03, 2000 11:25 PM            

I will be brief:

1. You have zero credibility on this board. A few years ago you wrote here as Baber Khan and posted some of the most vitriolic racist anti black material that is yet to be matched by anyone here. You were the one that wanted to rename Guyana into Guyanadesh or Guyanabad and even actively promoted separation.

As Al Gore would say '...a leopard cannot chage his stripes'. It is amazing to me how you now try to project this image of being one with the 'black bruddahs'. Suddenly, Malcolm X is 'your man', etc. In my estimation you are a Muslim fanatic, a perfect example of one that creates the mayhem we see in the Middle East today. Since you are now anti Hindu, you seek to promote this anti Hindu agenda where you are subtlely seeking the support of black people here to bash and denigrate Hindus like the Bushmaster.

2. I asked a simple question. In this instance of blood shed, who first killed the Israeli soldiers without provocation? I don't find that in any of the verbage you posted above.

3. Can you name me any TANGIBLE economic aid supplied to Guyana by the Palestinians, Saudi Arabians, etc. I am not asking about the bull shit ribbon cutting activities or cultural events, I am asking about TANGIBLE aid supplied to the poor and suffering in Guyana, inclusive of Muslims.

Spare me the rhetoric.

posted October 03, 2000 11:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gtman1:
This is why Jagdeo had no right in showing his hand (giving copy of Beal deal). Now is the time to lick the US boots and get them in GT. The US is unsure of Chavez and I'm sure would be willing to jump into Guyana, but the present govt is not exploiting this angle.

---

I am not in favor of Guyana statehood and all that baloney, but we still have too many Marxists in our midst. Despite the alternative of Venezuela annexing us, you will find all the Marxists coming out barking about 'our soverignty' and anti American propaganda, although Chavez would be annexing them as they speak.

This is the quality of fools we Guyanese have in our midst.

posted October 04, 2000 11:36 AM         

And Bonus, if you want to see racism, go to Israel like i have done on several occasions. THEY DONT LIKE BLACK PEOPLE! The Ethopian jews are regarded as little more than slaves. There is high suicide rate among them in Israel.
This is a racial and political issue. You and Eddie make it into a religious issue.
Apparently, you have no idea of Islam anyway. There are probably more BLACK muslims in the U.S. today than any other race. If you ever have the fortune to visit the middle east and Africa, you will see firsthand the staggering number of black bedouins, and black muslims that will make you crawl out of that white colonial hangover. By way of info, you ever heard of Timbucktu???

posted October 04, 2000 11:58 AM         

quote:

---

Ariel Sharon violated the Palestinian Mosque in a show of religious arrogance and racism, doubtlessly to instigate violence.

---

posted October 04, 2000 01:46 PM            

The 2 sides have a brutal history with each other and there are wrongs and rights on both sides. However, these Palestinian fanatics are in the habit of inciting and provoking the Israelis every chance they get. It certainly is not a reflection of Palestinians in general, only the fanatics in their midst that bring suffering on their own.

Even if Sharon's visit was ill advised, does that justify killing 2 Israeli soldiers? How many times do we read of these fanatics strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent women and children in market places? When they perform these acts, there will be retaliation and they don't seem to get it.

Terry,

Don't give me that bull about Black Muslims. First of all, the religion that they practice is way different from yours. Secondly, the likes of Farrakhan, Khalid, etc are not accepted by the likes of you. They aren't considered 'legitimate' Muslims. I notice you didn't address Bonus' question about the Sudan where those Muslims are enslaved simply because they're black.

It is interesting how both you and Jansher now want to pander to black people when both of you have spent so much time here denigrating them. Once again, you'll recruit the blacks for the 'struggle' and them piss on them when it's over. Have fun.

posted October 04, 2000 02:19 PM         

BTW, Black people live in the Sudan, so what are you talking about?

posted October 04, 2000 04:09 PM            

I'm not the one hurling bigoted religious remarks on this issue. I've kept my comments confined to the incident in question. Thus far there is no response from either you or Jansher to the questions I asked and I will do so again. Does Sharon's visit to the temple (albeit in bad taste) require the random killing of 2 Israeli soldiers? You avoid the questions like the plague.

Examine the posts you made, you typify the Arabs. You hurl your racist, Muslim apologetic trash and when the missiles are sent back, you cry foul. And what's with the sudden interest in the welfare of black people? You and Jansher should be awarded a prize for your hypocrisy.

posted October 04, 2000 08:50 PM            

First of all Eddie, during the days when JIAG people were on the discussions forum, I was playing devil advocate, and may have said things to solicit response. But anyway I don't have to justify anything to u. I am the best judge of myself and my principles.

But now I have alost all respect, because U are a bigot, u turn this into a religous issue and BLAME THE VICTIMS. MY GOD, DID WE NOT SUPPORT THE ANC during Apartheid South Africa. Thanks for letting us know that u have no sympathy for the Palestinian.

And u want to know what the ARABS DO FOR GUYANESE MUSLIMS, Saudi Arabia every year give CIOG, 10,000 USD for Ramadhan Iftar. Kuwait House sponsors Orphans. In the 1970's libya founded the GUYANA ISLAMIC TRUST, Libyan money have poured in. Many muslims go to Saudi, Egypt, Libya,e tch to study for free. Kuwait has forgiven Guyana's bilateral dept to that country. I will not waste time to give u details. Now you are the self declared expert on this area.

ARAB/BLACK

Most arabs are black anyway. Instead of hyping isolated incident of slavery in reference to Arabs why not concentrate your enery on the issue of black getting compensation for slavery. I am not looking for ligitimacy in the Black Community. Anyway, it not your place to say that "The nation of Islam" or its followers are not Muslim. The Nation is quite different from what it was in the 60 and 70's.

Eddie, I don't have a anti-Hindu agenda as u accused me of.

Don't speak for the 13% of Guyana's Muslim population , we have a right to forge and have an opinion about Palestine, its is our inalieanable rights. We know best what they have (arabs) have given to us and Guyana.

posted October 04, 2000 09:16 PM            

What the ARABS/MUSLIMS HAVE DONE FOR US IN GUYANA

DONATED FOR IFTAAR DURING RAMADAN
G$788,000:00 EXPANDED ON IFTAR RAMADAN 1998-1999

Over four thousand Muslims fasting during the month of Ramadam benefitted from the CIOG Iftar programme. This project has encouraged many to observe this pillar of Iftar.

Special thanks to the International Islamic Relief Organisation (IIRO), Saudi Arabia, International Islamic Charitable Organisation (IICO),  Kuwait, Zakaat House,  Kuwait and the Caribbean Islamic Secretariat.
May Allah reward them all.

- Scholarships - The CIOG and the Islamic Devoplement Bank provides interest free loans for Muslim students attending University.

posted October 04, 2000 09:23 PM            

- The CIOG continues with execution of projects on behalf of the following:

1. International Islamic Charitable Organisation (IICO), Kuwait.

2. Islamic Development Bank (IDB), Saudi Arabia (scholarships - the construction of 4 vocational schools).

3. World Assembly of Muslim youths (WAMY), Saudi Arabia. (Training Camps)

4. Muslim World League, Saudi Arabia.  (Islamic Propagation) Iftar donation

posted October 04, 2000 10:03 PM         

October 4, 2000

Commentary
The Temple Mount Must
Be Open to All Faiths

JERUSALEM -- There is no doubt the riots and armed confrontations with Israeli police and soldiers that broke out last week on the Temple Mount -- the most sacred site for Jews -- were part of a premeditated campaign organized by the Palestinian Authority.

PA security forces that have been operating illegally in Jerusalem in violation of the Oslo Accords for some time played a key role in this campaign. The "preventive security" force of Col. Gibril Rajoub, Force 17, the General Security Organization of Col. Tawfik Tirawi, the Tanzim (the militia of Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction) -- all have been involved in the planning, initiation and execution of the violence.

Deliberate incitement by Israeli Arab Knesset members, calling on Palestinians and Arab Israelis to confront Israeli forces in the "Battle for the Temple Mount," was part of this carefully orchestrated operation. The active participation of the radical Islamic movement in Israel in this campaign was a new threat.

***
Some Palestinians have hailed these riots as their "War of Independence." This is not just a question of sovereignty over the Temple Mount. There is more to it than just Palestinian police firing on Israeli soldiers and civilians. It goes beyond the large-scale participation of Arab Israelis in these confrontations, blocking roads and junctions. What is at stake is a struggle over the shape and future of Israel as a state. The outcome will determine the extent to which Israel can maintain its Jewish and democratic character against those who wish it to be something else: definitely not a Jewish state and probably not a strong democracy capable of defending the rights and liberties of its citizens -- Jews and Arabs alike.

I went to visit the Temple Mount with members of the Likud faction in the Knesset as I have done in the past -- first of all to inspect and ascertain that freedom of worship and free access to the Temple Mount is granted to everyone: Christians, Muslims and Jews in particular, since for 3,000 years it has been the site of our most sacred shrine. The exercise of this right has been undermined for some time now by threats and violence from the PA in order to pressure Israel to make more concessions in Jerusalem and the Temple Mount than it has already offered.

Ever since the reunification of Jerusalem in 1967, Israel has made solid arrangements on the Temple Mount to ensure that freedom of worship and free access to the site is rendered to all. But prior to Israeli rule, this right was denied to Jews. Neither I, nor any Israeli citizen -- Arab or Jew -- needs to seek permission from the PA, or from any foreign entity, to visit the Temple Mount or any other site in the sovereign territory of the state of Israel. Prime Minister Ehud Barak has made that very clear.

The PA is even attempting deliberately to erase and destroy all archeological evidence of Jewish presence at this holy site. They are attempting to invoke Jihad -- holy war -- over the Temple Mount in order to gain world-wide Islamic support.

It should be clear that, regardless of which Israeli government is in power, Jews cannot and will not give up their legitimate rights in Jerusalem, and particularly on the Temple Mount.

The evidence of the premeditated efforts to take control of Temple Mount was presented publicly by Israeli security following my visit. Intelligence reports indicate that the PA plans to use the riots in order to gain control over the site of the Western Wall, just below the Temple Mount, thus disrupting Jewish prayers there.

There is no way that one can achieve real peace while the systematic anti-Jewish, anti-Israel incitement instigated by PA leaders and its official media continues unabated. The dire consequences of this type of relentless incitement became evident in the outburst of violence among Arab Israelis in the past few days. Similarly, when armed Palestinian policemen and Tanzim members open fire on Israel's soldiers and civilians, it can easily kill the fragile hopes for reconciliation between Arabs and Jews.

The full responsibility for these actions lies on the shoulders of those Palestinians who are leading their people toward yet another tragedy, rather than toward peace.

***
Despite the harsh events, I still believe we can achieve peace, and that we can live together with our Arab and Palestinian neighbors. But there can be no real and lasting peace as long as the Palestinians and some of our other Arab neighbors do not discard violence and terror in pursuing their national goals.

Neither can true reconciliation and peace be achieved as long as Palestinians continue to deny the historical rights that Jews have in their one and only promised land, in their undivided capital of Jerusalem, and particularly on the Temple Mount. Freedom of access to holy sites, and the freedom of worship, would never be denied to Americans, Europeans or Arabs in their own respective countries and capitals.

posted October 04, 2000 11:27 PM            

I consider being called a bigot by the likes of you a compliment. It is absurd to expect anyone here to think that you were being a devil's advocate when you posted that racist trash on this forum under the alias Baber Khan. You were as despicable then as you are now, inciting hatred in the hearts of people. I have come to expect that from you; you are either waging a religious or racial jihad at any given time.

I specifically asked for TANGIBLE aid that the Muslim countries gave to Guyana. What you listed isn't even worth the time you spent to recount it, despite all the 'wealth' of your Arab brothers. As in Palestine, Guyanese Muslims live in poverty while the wealthy oil barons don't give a hoot about aiding their bretheren. You mean to tell me that in all these years the rich Saudis and Kuwaitis couldn't prevent those Palestinians from living in camps? The fact is, they don't give a rat's ass and only exploit the Palestinians and use them as a basis for a Jihad against Israel. As usual, the fanatic retards like you go along with it.

I agree that Muslims ought to be respected and factored into any cultural or political process in Guyana, however you seek to exalt them to some lofty status above the rest of us 'infidels'. You know where you can shove that crap.

The fact of the matter is that you take umbrage with anyone who chooses to excercise their right to disagree with you. Because I did, I'm branded a bigot and a racist by the likes of you and Terry and my religious beliefs are subject to ridicule. You fellas typify the racist Arab behavior in the middle east where you show no respect or tolerance for the opinions of others although you harp constantly on tolerance. The Jews would have none of that crap and that's where your problem lies. This attitude comes to the fore again in the article posted by Rabid above. When the Arabs had control of that Temple, no other religion's right to visit it was respected although it is of equal significance to the Jew and the Christian. That is the epitome of intolerance.

Listen Jansher, everyone knows this is about the command to wage a Jihad (holy war). Well it looks like you got one now, so quit all the yelping and deal with it. It is a pity that while the ordinary Palestinian is being killed, the fanatics like you escape to incite hatred another day. Go have your Jihad and be forewarned - in any war, people die. You will find it is not as easy as calling down a fatwa on a poor, defenseless Salman Rushdie. The Jews will kick your ass from pillar to post if you try that shit with them. It amazes me that you guys still keep trying it.

Eddie

posted October 05, 2000 09:04 AM         

Eddie,
I don't know where you got your story of 2 Israeli soldiers being killed first. Show your sources.

Secondly, you don't even know what temple mount is.
Sharon marched into the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque religious compound in a show of arrogance.
The wailing wall is outside of this compound.
If he wanted to wail, no body was stopping him from wailing at his wall. FURTHERMORE, no Arabs are allowed into the wailing wall portion.

Think if Arabs (or Christians) venture into a racist Israeli synagogue compound, what would happen? I have personally seen one sect of Israeli jews stoning other Israelis for venturing into their sacred territory.

BTW, you should be happier today. Your racist white Israeli brothers killed another child yesterday, and are firing rockets at innocent people. Hurray for the big white man!!

Anyway the thread should be closed. Jansher supplied Guyana's pro-Palestine policy.

posted October 05, 2000 10:23 AM         

quote:

---

My opinion is if the Muslims want peace they can leave and ask one of the Arab nations to put them up and let the Israelis fund the moving cost.

---

posted October 05, 2000 12:04 PM         

That plan was never to create an independent Israel but a commingling of Jewish with Palestinians in a common state. Obviously, it did not work out that way because the Jewish people were tired of being homeless and decided they owned the entire house. Their claims rest in religious doctrine rather than actual prior ownership of the land. That was the home of the Canaanites and other semantic peoples that God is supposed to have decreed not worthy of living and handed it over to the judges of Israel and later to the Children of David. It the Palestinians have a much longer history of habituation of the land. Both peoples are from the same father so they are siblings and ought to learn to share.

posted October 05, 2000 01:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Terry Ishmael:
BTW, you should be happier today. Your racist white Israeli brothers killed another child yesterday, and are firing rockets at innocent people. Hurray for the big white man!!

---

Also, I'm not saying that the Palestinians should simply surrender the land and go live in another country. But the fact of the matter is that these people live in deplorable conditions while their wealthy oil baron brehteren don't lift a finger to aid them in any tangible form. The Emirs in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia could care less about them, so why should their detractors? I suppose Saddam may give them shelter, but then look at what he did to the Kurds when he gassed them to death. Strange enough, both you and Jansher had nothing to say then.

Eddie

posted October 05, 2000 05:57 PM            

Eddie, I won't waste my time with u, because u are a rascist and a bigot. U BLAME THE VICTIM AND AWARE THE WHOLE OF ISREAL to the Isreali, who supported White South Africa and made billions in the dimond trade.

GUYANESE MUSLIMS ARE poor, get your facts straight u liar, u are such a liar, a blatant liar who makes generalizaioons. I gave u facts and numbers go do the research.

Where is your brain don't u know that Palestine is being subsidise by Arabs Oil money, it is mandatory, they all chip in. I would not waste time to give u figures.

U can call me all the names, but all I have to say to u I WOULD NOT BE APOLOGETIC of the Muslims or Justify their actions. The Palestinian actions are justify. U love to brand people, go ahead. You now turn this issue into a religous one. I deal with people like u who always use the tv image to describe Muslims. U don't have to live or grow up in camps all your life, or to be a witnessed of atrocities committed against palestinian. All u do in this discussion is calling us Muslims war mongers and Jihad supporters.

U were once respected on this forum, but recently I am not the only one to disagree with your blatant biasness and biogtry.

Isreal was caught red handed and only USA supports them now, the entire world condemned Isreal. So Mr. intellect Eddie go fly a kite and get your own figures, I am not writing your research paper for u. GET THE AUDIT REPORTS FROM CIOG,GIT, HIFAZ, SADR ANJUMAN, ISLAMIC DEV. BANK, ETCH.

posted October 05, 2000 06:00 PM            

Eyewitness: Battle for Jerusalem

The wounding and killing has continued all week

By Hilary Andersson in Jerusalem
At night from my flat I can hear huge thuds. The sound of heavy weapons being fired off. My flat is in central Jerusalem and the noises are not far off.

Fighting it out on the streets of Hebron
In the mornings I wake up - to church bells and mist over the old city - then slowly the Israeli police and soldiers start moving into their positions for another day of fighting. They surround the old city and its holy sites.
In the West Bank they sit at tanks, in sniper positions and behind concrete barriers on the streets.

The Palestinians wake up - some groggy after the last day's rioting. They head in groups to the usual places, lighting tires on the streets as they go.
Orange flames light up the early dawn. Black smoke billows upwards. Cars weave through the narrow gaps between the burning piles of rubber. Even with all the windows shut you can feel the sudden burst of heat as you pass them.

The West Bank is on fire - so is the Gaza strip. People keep dying. Hundreds have been injured.
But this is not calming the mood - Palestinians have long been waiting for this fight. And the Israelis are trained to respond.

A father mourns

So the young men on both sides - con****** Israeli soldiers well armed with flak jackets - and Palestinians of the same age some bare-chested, most in t-shirts, meet at the barriers.

Israel has the superior military might
They aim at each other - wild gunfights break out. They shoot and kill. These are people who on other days buy and sell from each other - they walk past each other on the streets, work for the same companies - in the same buildings.

One Palestinian man - in his 30s - got up caught up in the fighting at the weekend. I met him in hospital a few days later. He said he had been passing through an area of Gaza called Netzarim when the gunfire started.
The awful image of him and his son was captured on film. They crouched against a wall together - the father trying desperately to shelter his son from the hail of bullets - Rami the 12-year-old son wept with fear.
These were the last moments of his life. He was shot in the stomach and died in his father's arms.

Masked Palestinian gunmen are on the streets of Hebron

The father will live, but has eight bullet holes in his body. He told me this was cold-blooded murder. He said he could see the Israeli soldier who shot him. He told me they kept firing at him until they hit him.
The Israeli army admits it may have been them who fired the shots - but says if so, it was not deliberate.

That night in Gaza, Rami's coffin was lifted high above the heads of hundreds of Palestinians as it was marched through the streets. A man in front of his coffin shouted out calls for revolution against Israel.
If this isn't already a new Palestinian uprising - that's what it is turning into.
At the intensive care unit at Gaza's main hospital there were many injured in the face and neck. Several others in the room were children. The smell was grotesque - the injuries too awful to look at.
Is there so much hatred that it has come to this? The truth, I believe, is that this is not hatred - it is ignorance and fear.

Fear and anger

Israelis do not ask how many Palestinians died in the days' clashes - the huge numbers come only at the end of the Israeli radio reports, where one injured Israeli is mentioned as a headline. Arab lives to Jews do not seem to be as important - likewise Jewish lives are cheap to Palestinians at the frontline - who are just as ready to kill.

Palestinians are fed up with the peace process - it is not making their lives better

Name Here The Israeli army's response has been fierce. But fear is the fuel for this. Israelis see all of their soldiers' activities as self-defence - the riots are, after all, started every day by the Palestinians. To the whole country this is a battle for security and survival.
I believe that if ordinary Israelis sat at the frontline for one day and watched the Palestinians drop like flies when helicopter gunships fire from the air - they might not be surprised at the extent of Palestinian anger.

But here, as in most conflicts, people would rather laud their soldiers as heroes than worry about the other side.

posted October 05, 2000 11:31 PM            

If you could control your tendency to throw a sissy like tantrum every time you read my posts you might see that I stated that Guyanese Muslims are poor. Where did I disagree with that? Secondly, I clearly stated that the Palestinians should not be made to leave the land, but certainly the oil rich Muslim bretheren could supply something other than a deplorable refugee camp. Thirdly, the victims here extend to both Israelis who are killed daily by Fatwa fanatics like you as well as Palestinians. However, far be it for a cretan like you to see that Israelis are being killed too.

You claim that Palestine is being subsidized by Arab oil money. Looking at the conditions in Palestine compared to the wealth of the Arab nations, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that the Palestinians live in squalor. So where is the money going Jansher? Stop making crap up as you go along.

Finally Jansher, I have no interest in commanding respect from anyone on this forum least of all you. I have never had your respect either, since a few years ago when I spoke out against your anti black diatribes you thought I was a black man and proceeded to insult me and everyone in my 'n igger' family as you put it. I guess that's what you consider playing 'devil's advocate'. You are a despicable individual. I write what I believe in as unpopular as it may be. I have no need to be a chameleon and mask my true feelings under the guise of 'devil's advocate'.

Your intent on these websites is always to incite hatred, either against a black person, a Christian or in the Bushmaster's case - a Hindu. I noticed you identified with the war mongering Jihad so I assume it's not the first time you've been linked with one. Carry on. I have no intentions of continuing a discussion with a child who throws tantrums and writes

quote:

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u liar, u are such a liar, a blatant liar who makes generalizaioons

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posted October 07, 2000 09:30 PM         

That area is the cradle of civilization and the three main religions. The Jews have perpetuated the worse crime we have seen in the past 50 years on a whole nation. Things have now come full circle - they are doing to the Palestinians what Hitler did to them and worse. With concentration camps and all (except in this case no gas chamber as yet). Unlike what Hitler did and confiscated their arts, gold/jewellery etc... the Jews have stolen much more from the Palestinians.

I suggest for some of you who are ready to commend and side with the Jews for their atrocities - read some of the stories coming out of Oslo, Stockholm and Japan on this ongoing conflict, not only what the American TV is feeding the Americans. Let's see how the UN will handle this latest bullyism. Unless, these country are hyprocrites - they all condemn these recent acts by the Jews.

posted October 08, 2000 02:29 AM            

Its an issue of human rights. GETTOS, REFUGGE CAMPS, PRISONERS, DEMOLITION OF VILLAGES, ACTS OF TERRORISM,CONFISCATION OF LAND, TOURTOURING, ETCH

How can one in his or her right mind blame the victims, who have only stones, Barak can issue all his ultamatium, but I am in total agreement, stand up for your right and fight , what will he do, bomb and stray the Palestinian children with bullets, they have been falling like flies. They are ready to sacrifice everything for Palestine.

What he is going to do? Invade Lebanon and Sharon will kill another 300 Palestinian like he did in the 1980's. Invade Syria? Isreal has to realize it can't change geography and if it intends to live in peace with its neighbours it will have to make peace.

posted October 08, 2000 03:02 AM            

GUYANA

posted October 08, 2000 07:49 AM            

this crap is not about human rights. its only about a set of loonies placing religion above human lives.
the palestinians yesterday were vandalising the Tomb of Joseph which is said to be the tomb that jesus was buried in when he was crucified and rose from the dead.
this was an act of Muslim hatred and disrespect for christian religious values as well.

I support the 48 hr ultimatum for them to stop vandalising, defacing property, throwing rocks and behaving quite degenerate. and the sad part of this is, is that they are justifying this by calling it a JIHAD. So they are not killing, and dying out of a need for peace but out of a religious concept.

Not to forget Arafat who sits by and watches his people get slaughtered in the streets. All he has to say is, "Stop" and they will stop. But he's letting them shed their blood in the streets.

posted October 08, 2000 07:58 AM            

So BK don't bring that nonesense that Muslims and Christians have a right to a piece of Israel. Muslims and Christians based their religion on the Jewish Torah and added other concepts. In no way this justifies them to a piece of Israel. I can care less what their borrowed religion teach of as holy sites and holy places. the fact is, if its in another man's country, regardless of your religion it does not belong to you.
Imagine the gall of Arafat to want Jerusalem as his Capital?
this thing stinks.
anyway its not my people getting killed over religion. so I say let them proceed on into oblivion. its a pity the few in hell can't come back to warn them of their folly.

posted October 08, 2000 09:31 AM         

quote:

---

So BK don't bring that nonesense that Muslims and Christians have a right to a piece of Israel. Muslims and Christians based their religion on the Jewish Torah and added other concepts. In no way this justifies them to a piece of Israel. I can care less what their borrowed religion teach of as holy sites and holy places. the fact is, if its in another man's country, regardless of your religion it does not belong to you

---

posted October 08, 2000 11:11 AM            

Now as for the concept of brothers fighting against brothers.
We all know that Abraham had two sons. One of them out of wedlock to a servant Hagar. that son Ishmael is the father of the Arabs. He was kicked out of the camp.
The second son Isaac, father of the jewish people was born of Abraham and his wife Sarah. He was entitled to the wealth and property of his father and mother.

If you take the argument from this very basic genealogical line its easy to see today that the arabs have more land than the jews in the middleast and that their greed for Jerusalem is simply motivated by hatred and jealousy.
The so called Arabs (children of abraham) have land stretching from Pakistan to Algeira and Morocco, but would willingly break laws, bomb cars, bomb trucks, form guirella groups of Hamas, and JIHAD, to chase the Jews (children of Abraham) out of Palestine, a piece of land that is about 1/1000 the size of the total territory controlled by the Arabs.

GNI Anti semites. your argument doesn't cut it from a religious perspective and from a strictly genealogical perspective. You guys actually think I'm stupid to believe that Pro Arab crap that got itself attached on to Black Civil Rights and Human Rights.
Arafat is sacrificing the lives of his people in hopes of baiting Israel into an all out war, which in turn would foster unity among the Arab nations in trying to obliterate The State of Israel off the map.

Sadam tried this crap in the Gulf War by Bombing Israel in hopes of them retaliating thus fostering Arab alliances to kick them off the world stage.

You Anti Semites can believe what the hell you want and get suckered into that Arab victim manpiluation tactic by the PLO, but as Nuff would say. "It's Saran wrap"

posted October 08, 2000 11:18 AM            

quote:

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If you want some insight as to the mind set of the Isrealis, consider that they supported the appartheid regime of South Africa.

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posted October 08, 2000 11:21 AM         

This present Jerusalem is full of controversy, the conflicts will never cease according to the scriputures.

The present Mosque will be removed and a Jewish Temple erected on the site. The Jew will revert to animal sacrifices. Presently, preparation are made for that day. Sacrifical tools are already made and the Red Bulls are being raised.

History races towards its appointment.

The old order Jews exercise and will exercise more control over Israel's political landscape and thereby bring about the old order of Jewish Worship.

Presently, the Muslims offer animal sacrifice as well. The Jew reverting to this practice, is denouncing the Saving Grace of Christ and considering the Lord Jesus as a mere prophet and Clinging to Abraham's covanant of animal sacrifice.

God's covanant with Abraham as he lifted his eyes to heavens. Father of the tribes from Ishmael, the tribes from Isaac and through linage to Christ who made it possible for all tribes and races to come into the kingdom of God. The children of Abraham are many like the sands of the desert.

Christ was and is the ultimate sacrifice. The denial of His pledge of forgiveness for those who have Faith is denied.
The Battle of Armagedon will come, perhaps as a Punishment and Israel will be governed from Jerusalem. Their temple of worship will be used a place of sacrifice, only this time, pigs will be sacrificed. The yoke of burden will be upon all of mankind.

The Lord comes with ten thousand angels with a flaming sword as the days to prevent Adam and Eve to re-enter the Garden of Eden.
Jerusalem will be destroyed.
The Lord governs from New Jerusalem, the centre of knowledge, justice and God' peace.
From its garden, the aroma of the trees of life and knowledge will drift over whole surface of the earth.
The Lord Cometh, so becarefull little mouth what you say and be careful little hands what you do.
Your words will be brought back to condemn you.
Stop being RACISTS.

posted October 08, 2000 11:24 AM         

What makes a person Anti- whatever, anti-semetic, anti-arab, anti-man? In like manner don't bring that crap to me. No one can claim the earth as theirs, we are just borrowing space for survival. But what makes it right for two "superpowers" to grant Independence to a country that was already a country?

Why didn't they just draw a line in the sand the same way they did with Iraq and Kuwait --- yes and I will tell you again - search for the answers, do some research and you will be surprised at some of the answers. Don't just gobble up the "propaganda" the American TV/media (all of which of course are being "powered by Jews") have been feeding the gullible people over here.

posted October 08, 2000 11:40 AM            

All initiated by the PPP. I heard Cheddi give Barat a scholarship to Russia instead of Harvard. And this same Barat is supposedly trying to diversify the Guyana economy.

BK I'm not gobblig up the American Media's Spin. that's for you and Nuff to do. eg the Marion Jones fiasco.
I held everything constant and this is what I got.
1.Ariel Sharon visted a muslim Mosque.
For that visit there were protests in the streets. The Mob mentality quickly grew and rocks began throwing.
Note Ariel Sharon did not throw any rocks. His visit could have been political but it did not require rock throwing to show disagreement. Arafat could have called up Barak and talk this out.

As for that research. you actually think I'm stupid enough to believe that Israel did not begin until the UN mandate after WW2?

posted October 08, 2000 02:55 PM            

Au contraire Jansher, the money the Palestinians are supposedly receiving is at issue. Where does it go? These are people that have rocks for weapons and live in squalor, so where is the money that your wealthy Arab Bretheren are providing? I suggest you stop with your propaganda crap. Instead of living in squalor and poverty, don't you think your wealthy Arab Bretheren have room for these Palestinians in their countries? Can they not provide at least some housing in their countries for these Palestinians while an amicable settlement is sought with Israel and the Palestinians regain their land?

You see Jansher, as much as you hate to say it, you and your oil rich Arab bretheren have done diddly squat for the Palestinians except a lot of trash talking. When Milosevic was killing Muslims in Europe, the US stepped in, the neighboring countries took in as many Muslims as they could. That is what you call helping people, not charging $35 a barrel for oil while leaving your own people to rot in refugee camps.. With all the crap you're spewing here, you gingerly dance around the fact that this war is all due to the Holy Jihad that you fanatics are waging against Christians and Jews. You USE the Palestinians as bait and you exploit them as an excuse to wage war. If you had one iota of concern for the welfare of the Palestinians, you and your Arab bretheren would provide more TANGIBLE assistance for them instead of the war mongering verbage you are prone to. Furthermore, if you had a case Arabs are not beyond diplomatic reasoning to arrive a solution. But no, you fellas want a Holy Jihad war, so now you've got one and you're getting your asses kicked. In a war, there are victims so deal with it

Lastly, don't give me that crap about me making this a religious issue. It IS a religious issue, going back to Biblical and Torah times - that is what the land dispute is all about as Bonus correctly alluded to.

BK,

There was life on earth before the United Nations. All the old ******ures such as the Bible, Torah and Koran mention the 'nation of Israel'. Where do you think that was, in Florida? The Jewish people were in possession of ALL of this territory inclusive of the Arab countries for centuries and were driven off it. They became scattered and the UN finally created that state for them. It is interesting that NO ONE was interested in that dry, barren strip of land before the UN gave it back to the Jews. No Arabs wanted it, yet now it's an issue because it's the reason for a Holy Jihad by Jansher and his fanatics.

I also agree with a lot of what Sesom wrote. As much as one may be cynical about the Bible, one cannot deny the many prophecies that have come true. From reading the Good Book, one can easily see that the world events today point to the fulfillment of Armageddon.

posted October 08, 2000 03:45 PM            

well they screamed JIHAD. Lets see if they can handle the consequences. Like the old proverb. You plant apples seeds don't expect to reap pumpkin. You want war don't expect to reap life. let's see if they think they destruction of their sons and daughters are worth it.

If Arafat is concerned for their lives he would simply tell them to put their stones down. If he is complacent with their lives. All he has to do is ignore the situation.
So far we know where he stands.\

Eddie, there is a million man march on october 16th. Look for Farrakhan to use this events to sway black voters to vote for the Bush ticket. Remember he's buddies with Arafat, Khadafi and Sadam, and we all know where Liberman, Albright and James Rubin stand on this issue.
Look for a split in the black vote and a possible Bush upset.

posted October 08, 2000 06:46 PM         

Those laws were not unique to the Jews. Those laws were earlier enforced in Mesopatamia long before Abram departed from that country.

Ten Commandments is a different matter. Civil law existed long before the Commandments and many of the commandments are really civil law.

posted October 08, 2000 08:23 PM            

History will prove some wrong that their existed the Hammurabi code the first written laws, societes in Mesopotamia where there lived Phoenicians, Hebrews, Babylonians, Sumerians, Lydians and Persians.

The zionist movement brought the Europeans Jews to Palestine, whieh became Isreal in 1948.

posted October 09, 2000 09:23 AM            

In terms of Rights for Palestinians you failed miserably.
In terms of religion which it is about, you have also failed miserably.
In terms of the greedy jew argument, we all know that Barak made generous provisions in the recent peace talks and Arafat refused because jerusalem wasn't part of the package. So in terms of land, and a PLO state you have also failed miserably.

posted October 09, 2000 09:58 AM         

Why don't you take a trip to the library this weekend?
I do respect your postings, but when you write without facts, I advise you...read! read! read! and then post.

Abraham lived in what is today called IRAQ.
Moses fled from Egypt and led his people to the "promised" land (where Palestinians)were already living.

As for Roman history, the crusades, and modern history, that is easy for you to look up, as well as the Balfour treaty.
Thank your God that the Jews were not resettled in Guyana, you might be one of those stonethrowers. Stones against helicopters, tanks and rockets? Those people are the bravest people in the world. Give them some real arms to fight those cowardly white racists.
And once again, I ask, where is Palestine? It is mentioned in your bible. Did it, like Atlantis, sink to the bottom of the sea?