Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 01:09 PM            

Looking for historians, researchers, academics or religious bodies who would like to participate in a project to create a computer-based database of Indian Indentured Immigrants. These records now in the archives are decaying and will soon disappear. This project is in its infancy, but with a pro-active core of people it can become a reality.

The goal of this project is to create a computer-based database [retrievable on-line and available to archives, academics, libraries and the general public], with personal details of Indian indentured labourers in Guyana. This project can be expanded to include other indentured labourers such as the Chinese and the Portuguese. Supporting us will be the University of Suriname, which has successfully completed such a project on the Hindustani, Javanese and Chinese immigrants. Our goal is to get the support of the History Department of the University of Guyana. After the technical infrastructure is put into place, soliciting funds will be next.

What is needed in Guyana?

1. A person at the archives in Guyana who wants to act as a paid project
manger in Guyana. That person will do the following:

a. Organise the technical infrastructure (computers, transport of documents if the computers are at another location than the physical documents
b. Organise the data-input (people, schedule, data control etc)
c. Draw up a project document for funds application

Posts: 7600
From: rockland county, new york
Registered: MAR 99

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From:
Registered: FEB 99

Posts: 765
From: Ottawa canada
Registered: FEB 2001

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 01:30 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
Jansher,
Can you help me trace my roots? Seriousy, how can I find out who was my ancestors who came from India?

---

Coolio, I don't know how true it is, but I was give the name of Fred Sukdeo (somewhere in Ogle)and his wife Iris (a Guyanese Scholar) who has done some work in this area. I have never had the chance to make the contact.

Also, Dr. Basdeo Mangru who lives in New York may be able to help. He has put out a new book "The History of Indians in Guyana."

The historical records are is chaos and I think Jansher has come up with a brilliant idea.

Perhaps a few people from the University of Guyana, the University of the West Indies and Guyana Archives ought to help.

I understand that there are records in England that can be obtained as well.

Two people to contact there would be Dr. Clem Seecharan and Dr. David Dabydeen.

So many years later and still... the scattering seeds of Indians in the Caribbean region - almost a forgotten people.

Jansher, please let me know the outcome of this outreach project.

By the way, I have read your papers on the Muslims in Guyana and Surinam especially - very very informative. You have done a lot of work. Congratulations.

[This message has been edited by Jayadevi (edited February 01, 2002).]

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 01:36 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by bushmaster:
This is a Job for the Indian Government. They owe us this.

---

Bushmaster, the Indian Government has forgotten their lost children across the Kala Pani.

They had to fight off British imperialism with full force to maintain their own sanity.

But it is not too late to try and obtain data from them.

So much work, so little time... Not only have our grandparents passed on, but our parents too who saw the ending of indentureship have either gone or soon to go... The lost records, the cost of survival...

Posts: 4270
From: NY
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 01:41 PM            

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about Guyanese Indians.

What a waste of money and resources.

Posts: 765
From: Ottawa canada
Registered: FEB 2001

posted February 01, 2002 01:50 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by mm65:
That is totally backwards, why are we looking to the past intstead of the future.

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about Guyanese Indians.

What a waste of money and resources.

---

MM
Your Great Great Great grand mother was a big stinking nasty hore, and your great great great gradnfather - he was a Harijhan (sp?)Anti-man.

Posts: 4270
From: NY
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 01:52 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
MM
Your Great Great Great grand mother was a big stinking nasty hore, and your great great great gradnfather - he was a Harijhan (sp?)Anti-man.

---

Thanks for the info.

Posts: 7600
From: rockland county, new york
Registered: MAR 99

posted February 01, 2002 01:56 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
MM
Your Great Great Great grand mother was a big stinking nasty hore, and your great great great gradnfather - he was a Harijhan (sp?)Anti-man.

---

its no joke. a very good possibility. the high and mighty did not come to guyana.

Posts: 686
From:
Registered: MAR 99

posted February 01, 2002 02:20 PM         

A community magazine DESI had an account of 2(Guyanese & Trinidadian) individuals search for their roots in India. I believe the publisher is in Toronto. There is a info on how these individuals did their search. It was very interesting.

[This message has been edited by Roger (edited February 01, 2002).]

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 02:28 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by mm65:
[b]That is totally backwards, why are we looking to the past intstead of the future.

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about Guyanese Indians.[b/]

---

mm, you need to rethink your statement. To move forward, one must understand the past. Try to study the 'History of the WORLD'
and you will obtain some insights into how eurocentricism pervades the universe. The British especially (over other European maurauders - Dutch, French, etc) has made a point of documenting history so that their descendants can learn something about their ancestral journey in the world. Even if such a child is of mixed origins, they would still learn something about those who came before them.

Windston Churchill for example has been instrumental in the creation of a publication called : History of the English Speaking Peoples. I have a few copies of different issues: The Roman Province, The British Raj, The Great Fire, etc. and you will see how historical information about so called 'civilisation' can make you rethink your place in the world today.

Here is a good example: "The barbarian invaders virtually wiped out Rome's influence in Britain." Now, what do you think the Europeans did to Africa, India, the Aborigines in Australia, etc.??

mm, the Jewish people have documented their historical journeys...etc. etc. and continue to do so. Today, their descendants are better equipped with the knowledge from whenst they came.

Information is only for those who are keen in the knowledge of its meaning in their lives.

For you perhaps it has little meaning. But you should not discount it. It is not about going backwards, but rather forwards.

[This message has been edited by Jayadevi (edited February 01, 2002).]

Posts: 7600
From: rockland county, new york
Registered: MAR 99

posted February 01, 2002 02:34 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by mm65:
That is totally backwards, why are we looking to the past intstead of the future.

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about Guyanese Indians.

What a waste of money and resources.

---

mm,
we need to preserve our history, the guys idea did not include government.

Posts: 2757
From: Bramalea,ontario,Canada
Registered: JUN 2001

posted February 01, 2002 02:35 PM            

Originally posted by mm65:
That is totally backwards, why are we looking to the past intstead of the future.

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different
country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about
Guyanese Indians.

What a waste of money and resources.

MM
Your Great Great Great grand mother was a big stinking nasty hore, and your great great great gradnfather -
he was a Harijhan (sp?)Anti-man.

--------------------------------------------

I heard MM and Coolie are 4th cousins.

Posts: 765
From: Ottawa canada
Registered: FEB 2001

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 03:08 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by coolio:
Ciusins??? Nat a rass , meeh a waan wite skin Brahmin!

---

Does this mean the wife is a whitie Canadian so the kids could be whiter Brahmins?

Are you then practicing according to the Ramayana?

Posts: 4270
From: NY
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 03:12 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by krishna:
mm,
we need to preserve our history, the guys idea did not include government.

---

I thought is was gov't funded being part of the History Dept. of UG. I have no problems with preserving history, but how would this effort help to build Guyana? Seems like Guyana is just a transhipment point for the movement of people.

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 03:15 PM         

Anyway coolio, up there in Ottawa, dem whites more prejudiced than in Toronto. Herb Dhaliwal is a rare entity in the Federal Cabinet. Isn't there an Afro Guyanese in the Treasury up there?

Still, we really need the Equity law back in this province, don't you agree?

Posts: 765
From: Ottawa canada
Registered: FEB 2001

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:25 PM            

Then there are some who make blanket statements about the immigrants and they are most unfounded.

The records are being destroyed as we speak; less talk and some action.

Jayadevi:

we will need some help with the project. Oh, thanks for the kind sentiments.

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:27 PM            

I have contacted people who writes books, but they are into a different focus. Now we must start from scratch and form a core progressive group. I have Dr. Vic Madheo who has some contacts with Unesco on board.

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:34 PM            

Guys why do you make such stupid remarks, who are not intrested in the history their own history. STudy the past to predict the future. Why should we not preserve the IMMIGRATION RECORDS, I am not asking for us to study Indian history or asking anyone to go to India.

The problem is that many Guyanese Indians do not know much of their own family history and suddenly they write all types of trash like: "oh the indians were the scum from the getto or loosers or *****s". No wonder why other ethnic groups humilate the Indians who have no respect for thier own ancestors.

Well, I beg to differ, the Immigrants were wise and progressive people to have embarked on this three months journey. We know from were they came from and we know exacly their social status.

Its ashame many of you do not know and you make stupid remarks.

Posts: 28624
From:
Registered: MAR 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:39 PM         

It sounds very interesting and I don't mind helping out in any way I can. Please let me know.

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:47 PM            

thanks for your positive-progressive response. We have some one who is very familiar with writing grant proposal; he has some inside knoweldge of UNEESCO. However, most importantly we have to get our core group or our tech. infrastructure first. University of Suriname will help us or guide us also about soliciting funds. Infact, i had a women yesterday who already volunteer tangible support.

Look what the Surinamese have done:
http://www.archief.nl/suriname_english/engels/efrm_database.html?hdr_searching

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 03:55 PM            

Your involvement will be most welcomed. Here is whats happening. These are the advise I am getting and also is is from here that the idea was born. I am not reinventing the wheels. As you will see we have people willing to assist us.

jansher.

Dear Raymond,

Here are my suggestions.

1) Find a person at the archives of the government in Guyana who wants to
act as a paid project manager in Guyana. You need somebody who will do the
following:
a) organise the technical infrastructure (computers, transport of documents
if the computers are at another location that the physical documents)
b) organise the data-input (people, schedule, data control etc)
2) draw up a project document for funds application and the rest will
follow.

Succes,

Greetings,

Sandew Hira

[email protected]

Maybe you can contact also the history department of the University of
Guyana. (for instance Tota Mangar or James Rose).
We (Sandew Hira and Maurits Hassankhan) can give you technical assistance.
If UG will join the project it is easier for the University of Suriname to
give assistance, because we have a co-operation agreement between the two
universities.

Maurits S. Hassankhan - University of Suriname
From: "Dew Baboeram"
To:
Cc: "Maurits Hassankhan" <

[email protected]

Dear Raymond,

Here are my suggestions.

1) Find a person at the archives of the government in Guyana who wants to
act as a paid projectmanager in Guyana. You need somebody who will do the
following:
a) organise the technical infrastructure (computers, transport of
documents
if the computers are at another location that the physical documents)
b) organise the data-input (people, schedule, data controll etc)
2) draw up a project document for funds application and the rest will
follow.

Succes,

Greetings,

Sandew Hira

[email protected]
http://www.archief.nl/suriname/about/introductie.html

Basic Policy Document of the HDP
The Historical Database Project (HDP) on Slavery and Indentureship
Background

This project aims at creating a computer-based database [retrievable on-line and available to archives, academics, libraries and the general public], with personal details of Africans, Asians and Europeans who were enslaved or indentured in the areas colonized by the Southern and Western European powers from the 15th to the 19th centuries. The project was initiated by Maurits Hassankhan of the University of Suriname, Sandew Hira of Amrit Consultancy in the Netherlands, and Verene A. Shepherd of the University of the West Indies in Jamaica and a 2000-2001 Network Professor of the York/UNESCO Nigerian Hinterland Project. It originated at the Conference on Asian Migration to the Americas held at the University of the West Indies, St. Augustine Campus, Trinidad & Tobago 11-17 August 2000, at which all three initiators made presentations, and was inspired by the Database on Indians and Javanese immigrants to Suriname prepared by Maurits Hassankhan and Sandew Hira. The idea of the HDP is to build similar databases on Indian, African and European unfree labourers relocated to the various diasporas and to facilitate comparative analyses for publication.
Significance
Historical databases are important building blocks in the project of excavating, reclaiming and reconstructing the history of subaltern peoples whose voices have been virtually silent in the traditional historiography. Most of the traditional historical accounts of "migrating" peoples tend to be depersonalized, alienating and elitist, with many reducing the "migrants" to mere statistics. Personal details on different ethnic groups help in the reconstruction of ethnic identity, assist in sociological analysis, enable genealogical research by descendants into their family background, facilitate the forging of links between "home" and "diaspora" and foster diasporic consciousness.
The HDP will allow for the recovery of some of the lived experiences of subaltern workers, provide material for biographical and comparative studies, and assist in the understanding of the society, economy and politics of colonial societies.
Cultural and historical value
The HDP also has a cultural and historical value for archives of bonded labour. Digitising archival record is important for three reasons.
In the first place, archival data are being made accessible to a general public. Digitising makes it possible to bring the sources to the user instead of the user going to the sources. The internet is an appropriate medium through which to do this. People who do not have access to the internet can make use of the printed edition of the database.
In the second place, by digitising data a shadow archive is being created. If the original sources are lost, there will be another version that can be copied as many times as is needed.
Thirdly, digitising data provides the opportunity to preserve existing sources better and for a longer period. The users do not have to use the original documents anymore. So the natural deterioration of archives can be delayed.

Aims
The aims of the HDP are:

1. To stimulate and facilitate the production of historical databases on the history of subaltern people.
2. To promote the use of these databases for popular and scientific purposes.

Objectives in the first year
The HDP and its Executive Committee (EC) was formed on August 14, 2000 at the St. Augustine Campus of the University of the West Indies, Trinidad & Tobago as an initiative of the University of Suriname, UWI Jamaica and Amrit Consultancy.
The objectives of the HDP in the first year are:

1. To establish a functioning EC with regular (monthly) (chat) meetings via the internet.
2. To form a judicial basis of the project. The HDP is a joint initiative of three partners: the university of Suriname, UWI and Amrit Consultancy. The basis of this partnership is a formal agreement between the parties in which the objectives and responsibilities are laid down. The legal basis of the project is not a formal body separate from these institutions but an agreement between the partners. This joint venture is promoted under the name of HDP.
3. To establish a website for communication with individuals and public and private institutions.
4. To produce an inventory of existing digitising projects on bonded labour. The inventory will be made on the basis of a questionnaire that will be sent to experts around the world who are active in this field and on research via the internet.
5. To produce an inventory of possible archival records that should be prioritised in the HDP. The inventory will be made on the basis of a questionnaire that will be sent to experts around the world who are active in this field.
6. To form an International Advisory Board (IAB) for the HDP consisting of people from the academic, cultural and business community. The task of the IAB is to advise the HDP in developing its policy and open doors to networks of institutions, scholars and potential funders of HDP.
7. To form a network of scholars, popular users, public and private institutions who work together in producing, maintaining, promoting and using HDP-databases.
8. To form partnerships with scholars, public and private institutions to develop and carry out digitising projects for the HDP. The following tasks are part of the development of a project:

The production of a project dossier that includes a description of the project and the activities that are carried out; the organizational framework of the specific project and its relation to the HDP; the time-frame and a detailed budget estimate.
The sourcing and application of funds for carrying out the project.

1. To organize an international workshop to launch the HDP and to discuss experiences in developing, producing, maintaining and using historical databases.

Organization
Executive Committee
The initiative for this international project has been taken by the above mentioned institutions (University of Suriname, UWI Jamaica, and Amrit Consultancy). They have formed an Executive Committee that has taken the responsibility to develop the project and the relevant structures that will embody the project.
The following persons constitute the EC:
Maurits Hassankhan (president)
Verene A. Shepherd (vice-president)
Sandew Hira (secretary)
The composition of the EC is subject to change depending on the development of the HDP network. The experience of the HDP will produce more final arrangements for the selection of members of the EC and the operation of the EC.
Network of scholars and institutions
The EC will approach scholars and institutions to develop and carry out projects within the framework of the HDP. These scholars and institutions will be invited to become members of the HDP network (the HDP-NET). Their membership of the network is based on:
Concrete work in developing, producing and maintaining historical databases in cooperation with the HDP-EC.Communication with the HDP-EC.
International Advisory Board
The EC will approach individuals, public and private institutions to become members of the IAB. The IAB will act as an advisory body to the HDP. Advice can be given on a personal basis or via chatmeetings.Invitation
The HDP invites scholars, public and private institutions to participate in the HDP network (the HDP-NET). For more information contact the HDP secretariat:

HDP Secretariat
C/o Sandew Hira
Address: Gerard Doustraat 160, 2526 NK The Hague, Holland, tel: +31 (0) 70 3887033, fax: +31 (0)70 - 388.93.33, email: [email protected], website: www.amcon.nl/hdp

Background information

Introduction

This database is the result of a research project of the Institute for Social Scientific Research (IMWO) of the University of Surinam, in collaboration with Amrit Consultancy, a research agency based in the Netherlands. The project was supported by the Nauyuga association in Surinam.

June 5 is traditionally the day when the Day of the Immigration is celebrated in Surinam. In 1998 it had been 125 years since the first Hindustani from former British India set foot on Surinam soil to work on the plantations as contract workers. However, the first Hindustani who worked on the plantations did not come directly from British India, but rather from the West Indies. In the period starting from 1868 it appears that immigrants from the British West Indies worked on the plantations in Surinam. Among these immigrants were British Indians (Hindustani) who had served the full term of their contract and now entered into a contract for Surinam.
Between 1873 and 1916 - the era of the Hindustani contract labour in Surinam - over 35,000 Hindustani came from British India to Surinam. One third of them would return to their country of origin. Worth mentioning at this point is the fact that during this period an estimated 2500 British Indians came from Guyana to Surinam as free immigrants, settling there permanently. Of those of the more than 25,000 Hindustani who stayed in Surinam, approximately 300,000 descendants were alive in 1998 (150,000 of which in the Netherlands), bringing the total count to approximately 13 living persons for every immigrant.

All nations are very interested in their own history. History is part of the structure that makes up the identity of a nation. This is expressed in stories, legends and observations concerning the past. This interest is even stronger when it concerns the history of one´s own family, and the identity of the individual. Hindustani from Surinam who would like to study their family history and who, for this purpose, want to go as far back as their ancestors who came to Surinam, encounter great difficulties trying to find and consult the sources that can help them do this. This database is a collection of part of these sources. Furthermore, this is the first time in the history of Surinam that a source of this nature is digitalized.

Within a relatively short period of time, between June of 1997 and April of 1998, personal data of Hindustani immigrants from two different basic sources - the Immigration Registers and the so-called folders - were entered into the computer. The data on the free immigrants from British Guiana have not yet been included in the database. They can be found in registers of free immigrants at the Central Registry Office (Centraal Bureau Burgerregistratie - CBB) in Surinam.

Based on the experience gained with this database, it is now possible to elaborate plans for the digitalization of the Immigration Registers for Chinese and Javanese people and of the slave registers.

Furthermore, it is possible to use this database as a basis to compose maps of Surinam, indicating the concentrations of contract workers. Even more important are the maps of India, indicating the origin of the immigrants as well as the current status of the villages where they once lived (name changes, whether they merged into larger cities as districts, or whether they have since disappeared, etc.). This will help descendants of immigrants to retrace the tracks of their ancestors as far back as India.
The Historical Database is, of course, important for people who wish to perform genealogy studies. It is important, too, for scientists who intend to analyse the history of immigration, for whom this database has opened up a source of information that will enable them to make new analyses of the Hindustani contract labour.

Posts: 7840
From: NY
Registered: FEB 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:04 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK:
Jansher - Is UNESCO going to fund this project?

It sounds very interesting and I don't mind helping out in any way I can. Please let me know.

---

Posts: 7840
From: NY
Registered: FEB 99

quote:

---

Originally posted by mm65:
That is totally backwards, why are we looking to the past intstead of the future.

How will this project benefit Guyana? We are all Guyanese now, India is a totally different country with some real uppitty upper class people, who don't give two cents about Guyanese Indians.

What a waste of money and resources.

---

Banna the Indian race is culturally rich and dynamic and the people have a lot of PRIDE,unlike some OTHER races.Simply put "IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE THEN YOU NEVER KNEW FROM WHENCE YOU CAME AND YOUR FUTURE IS NUL AND VOID.

Posts: 1202
From: Vancouver, BC . Canada
Registered: AUG 1999

posted February 01, 2002 04:12 PM            

See when you put your Muslim/ Hindu partisan hat aside you can come up with brilliant ideas! Grand Pa David and Uncle Molai would have been most proud of you

------------------
MARA MAN

Posts: 4270
From: NY
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 04:12 PM            

I know that, haven't we already preserved the Indian culture in Guyana? Don't we already know the history of where we came from and why. As Guyanese now, where are we headed? Most likely North America or Europe. Where does that leave Guyana? A a trip to India would reinforce where your roots really are and to dispell any commonalities you thought you had with them.

Posts: 28624
From:
Registered: MAR 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:13 PM         

D2 - I don't think that what Jhanser is proposing involved scanning documents into electronic form. But rather to get people to input the information on each indenture immigrant in a dbase directory.

Based on what I looked from the link Jhanser posted for now I see this as a closed project, unless some new parameter is included to extend beyond indentureship -- and I doubt that they would get all the information to feed into the system.

[This message has been edited by BK (edited February 01, 2002).]

Posts: 7840
From: NY
Registered: FEB 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:21 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK: Jansher - that link is very informative. I hope that your proposals/endeavours are met with favorable response from the respective authorities. I am sure the end product would be worth the time and effort

D2 - I don't think that what Jhanser is proposing involved scanning documents into electronic form. But rather to get people to input the information on each indenture immigrant in a dbase director.

Based on what I looked from the link Jhanser posted I see this only as a closed project.

---

Posts: 28624
From:
Registered: MAR 99

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:28 PM            

Thats exacly what i am proposing. A database for the records which are in the archives in Georgetown town. Not interesting in death or birth records. If anyone one in the future would like to expand on the work thats fine.

No more than 300,000 immigrants came to Guyana between 1838 and 1916, if others can do it we can do it; we can compille it in a data base before its too late.

I will write to Gail Texiera and this summer i will be in Guyana and Suriname for about 2 months.

Mara Man:

you can help us with soliciting funds ...

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:30 PM            

Thats exacly what i am proposing. A database for the records which are in the archives in Georgetown town. Not interesting in death or birth records. If anyone one in the future would like to expand on the work thats fine.

No more than 300,000 immigrants came to Guyana between 1838 and 1916, if others can do it we can do it; we can compille it in a data base before its too late.

I will write to Gail Texiera and this summer i will be in Guyana and Suriname for about 2 months.

Mara Man:

you can help us with soliciting funds ...

TO EDUCATE SOME WHO MAY BE IGNORANT OF THE IMMIGRANTS WHO CAME To Guyana.

These are the districts from where the bulk of immigrants came from:

A. Uttar Pradesh
Eastern Region
Ballia
Varanasi(Benaras)
Gorakhpur
Maharajganj
Ghazipur
Mirzapur
Azamgarh
Mau

East Central Region
Allahabad(Prayag)
Jaunpur
Pratapganj
Sultanpur
Faizabad
Basti
Gonda
Baharaich

(Ghat of Varanasi) B. Bihar
Saran Region
 Chapra
  Siwan
Gopalganj
Champaran Region
Motihari
  Bettiah
Hajipur(Vashali)
Ara Region
Bhojpur
Rohtas
Buxur
Bhabhua

C. Jharkhand
Palamu Region
Palamu
Garhwa

Posts: 4270
From: NY
Registered: MAR 2001

Posts: 28624
From:
Registered: MAR 99

Posts: 1135
From: Elmsford, NY 10523
Registered: MAY 99

posted February 01, 2002 04:45 PM            

Exacly; once tech. infrastructure are in place; money will come from gov or non gov. agencies. We need the University of Guyana on board. I have sent a letter to the public; let me see the response I get. I will also write to the two people that the University of Suriname has given to me and aslo to Ms. Gail Taxiera.

MM: thanks for the estimates

BK:
we will set up a meeting here in NY soon

Posts: 2437
From:
Registered: MAR 2001

posted February 01, 2002 04:46 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jansher:
Jayadevi and BK:

thanks for your positive-progressive response. We have some one who is very familiar with writing grant proposal; he has some inside knoweldge of UNEESCO. However, most importantly we have to get our core group or our tech. infrastructure first. University of Suriname will help us or guide us also about soliciting funds. Infact, i had a women yesterday who already volunteer tangible support.

Look what the Surinamese have done:
http://www.archief.nl/suriname_english/engels/efrm_database.html?hdr_searching

---

Jansher, this is amazing. I got goosebumps looking at the records, especially not knowing my own ancestral journey.

I would not mind helping in some ways, but I must tell you that when I came to Canada in 1975, even then, I had been in a 'VOID' about the history of Indian indentureship. Only in the last few years, I have been updating myself... and still a long way behind.

Recently, I started a project to try and get a sense of Guyanese in Canada (Toronto especially), but it has not come off the ground. I designed a survey form with the hope of posting it on the internet and distributing it via the Guyana Embassy/Consulate, but all voluntary efforts are slim. We don't even know our presence here - so you can imagine.

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posted February 01, 2002 04:48 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK:
D2 - I agree with you on the preservation of the documents. However, I doubt that those involved at this stage of the project can get the funds to invest in a microfiche set-up. I am sure that when the data in inputted into the directory they would have some sort of checks/balances to verify that the information is correct, and they can enhance it by providing the links to the microfiche documents.

---

Microfiche is dead. Xerox docuText kinds of machines can not only accept input but can distribute data. I do not trust word of mouth data. As you can remember I did an analysis of the families in my village over 4 generation a few years ago and mainly from word of mouth. I ended up with a fairly good database but the lies people told were apparent from day one. Often their memory fails and they don’t know. I did not accept anything as true until I could verify it from multiple sources. Even so, there are lots of links remained open. I had slightly over 50 families and this would be in the area of 3 hundred thousand families so it is doomed to be corrupted very easily without the controls of original verifiable sources.

[This message has been edited by D2 (edited February 01, 2002).]

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posted February 01, 2002 05:02 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK:
D2 - bai, this directory that Jansher is proposing would be based on information contained in official documents, not word of mouth.

---

Then the quickest way is scanning the original documents and then after preliminary analysis determing the kind of databases as well as input strategy. Computers are becoming faster and in a little while we wont be bothering about pixel size. Even now each page at readable resolution would be around 50k.

Without these original documents preserved this way, that database will always be suspect and single purpose. It is not like researching a book but preserving historical facts.

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posted February 01, 2002 05:12 PM            

Since the PDF format is probably the industry standart for scanned documents, it would be the most prudent to use. Here is the link to the software. http://www.adobe.com/products/acrcapture/main.html

This is a heavy duty scanner suited for scanning lots of documents through a document feeder. http://www.seadat.com/epson/836xlfea.htm

Always buy the fastest computer on the market at the time of purchase since they tend to go obsolete within a year. So a Pentium 4 with 256megs or 512megs of ram, CD-RW and Zip drive would be the choice.

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posted February 01, 2002 05:16 PM         

[This message has been edited by BK (edited February 01, 2002).]

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posted February 01, 2002 05:23 PM            

If that is the case (man hours) then the documents could be sent off shore (most likely to India) where technical skills are high and labor is cheap. That would probably be the cheapest alternative.

but the Adobe Acrobat Software is quite capable, we use it at work.

Depending on the conditions of the documents then the scanner as presets to handle shades of gray, types of paper extc.

I sent an old Cad paper drawing in poor condition to India to be scanned and translated into CAD, it came back a week later in the electronic format with all data intact.

[This message has been edited by mm65 (edited February 01, 2002).]

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posted February 01, 2002 05:24 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK:
D2 - I agree, however you have to realize the conditions they documents might be in. The documents were handwritten, I don't disagree with you that scanning would be the fastest and most efficient way.... but the source document is not picture perfect. I am sure that technology is so advanced that they can probably be able to read those hand-written documents, but what percentage would be readable, it would take a lot of man-hours.

---

It is not about scanning them into computer readable format but scanning them so that humans can read the text and translate them accurately.

Scanning is quicker and better to catalog the documents and it will be easier to translate or input manually than looking at the document. The image can be manipulated to reconstruct faded ink or corrupted originals.

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posted February 01, 2002 05:35 PM            

[This message has been edited by mm65 (edited February 01, 2002).]

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posted February 01, 2002 05:36 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by BK:
D2 - that's the problem! how much would be readable when these documents are scanned. What percentage would come out garbled because the reader misread words and numbers. I don't think the software is so advanced to read those handwritten documents with 100% accuracy, it would entail a lot of manual work regardless how you look at it technology alone will not resolve this.

---

I am speaking about scanning and retaining the image. I am not speaking of scanning the document and have the computer "read" the data. We are not that advance as yet in the tech to do that well/

Parking tickets for example, is routinely scanned en mass. The images are always retained. Those that cannot be read are distributed over various input sites where humans read them and manually type in the data.

I am talking about scanning the images, retaining them as originals representation of the historical evidence that will be used by humans to manually transcribe and input the data .

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posted February 01, 2002 05:40 PM            

There are some expensive OCR software that can be used to translate hand writing and vectored information into readable text. Put that is too expensive a venture. I used one in Guyana to translate old paper drawings containing text and vectored information. That is going the expensive route though.

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posted February 01, 2002 05:45 PM            

What kind of condition are these documents in?..maybe you can scan one and post it here

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posted February 01, 2002 05:57 PM            

Begin by searching backwards, look at your BC and get your parents info. Then look up your parents , then their parents, then the grand parents and so on until you get to the birthcertificate carrying your indenture ancestor with the Indenture number.

Then get someone in London to take the Indenture number to the Sommerset House in London and look up the Shipping logs and search the name ,point of embarkation.

beyond that you may want to be careful what you find about your ancestors in India.

For instance if you are brahmin,you may find out you are not Brahmin anywhere down the line but became brahmin when your ancestor boarded the boat and changed his caste.

What a rass if you find out yuh grand pappy was a Chamar.

Anyway, I know my roots all the way back to India and in spite of my knowledge of their history I am against caste. I think it was and still is India's Albatross.

I have educated my kids to understand the struggle of the Coolies on Guyana , Suriname and Trinidad , places my ancestors came from
and they are aware they are indian but they are not the same as Indians from India .

Coolies are essentially a special breed of people who have faced great challenges and succeeded.

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posted February 01, 2002 06:05 PM            

The documents are in huge log books; many many voluumes. one has to flip pages.

D2:

what lies and false stories are you talking about.

These records are accurate and authentic; they Indians did not jumped from the sky to Guyana.

MM how do you suggest scanning these logs?

My proposal was just to imput the data from the the logs.

D2 what are you talking about word of mouth?

This is not fabrication.

JAyadevi:

Yes i spent two months going through the Suriname Database; its was like reliving the past. Three of my ancestors records are in those data bank AND THEY MATCH THE IMMIGRATION NUMBER ON the birth certificate of my mother.

w

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posted February 01, 2002 06:23 PM            

Guys the records dont need expert to read; they are simple and straight forward.

Jayadevi:

This is a copy in Dutch of my great -grand mother:

Maharajin, Nimar
Relaties(RELATIVES; SHE CAME WITH ONE AND A CHILD) :* vrouw van Ss/53; (IMMIGRATION NUMBER WHICH IS ON MY MOTHER'S BIRTH RECORDS)   van  ;   van  
------------------------------------------------------------------------

GESLACHT (sex) V
LEEFTIJD (age) 18
HUIDSKLEUR (colour) 
LENGTE (height) 1.48
HERKENNINGSTEKEN (marks) get. beide armen
NATIONALITEIT (Nat.) Brits Indie
DISTRICT: Sultanpur
POLITIEPOST Piparpur
DORP (Drop off) at Purlampur
BEROEP  
KASTE (caste) Thakur
KINDGEGEVENS (children with her) J

SCHIPNAAM (ship name) S.S.Dewa
MONSTERNUMMER (passenger number) 267
WERVINGSINSTANTIE het koloniaal gouvernement
AFREISPLAATS (port of embark) Calcutta
AFREISDATUM (date of dep) 4/7/1916
AANKOMSTPLAATS (Destination) Suriname
AANKOMSTDATUM (Arrival)5/24/1916

PLANTER (planter) Erven Robert Kirke
PLANTAGE (plantationn) Pl.Waterloo(Nickerie)
CODENR Ss/54 (immigration number)
BEGIN_CON 5/24/1916 (date cont. started)
EIND_CON 5/24/1921 (contract ends)
HERBEGIN  
HEREIND  
REBEGIN  
REEIND  
KLSTATUS  
VERZET  
MEMO_INFORMATIE  

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The relationships consists of references to d

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posted February 01, 2002 06:25 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jansher:
lets get some facts straight:
The documents are in huge log books; many many voluumes. one has to flip pages.
D2: what lies and false stories are you talking about.
These records are accurate and authentic; they Indians did not jumped from the sky to Guyana.
MM how do you suggest scanning these logs?
My proposal was just to imput the data from the the logs.
D2 what are you talking about word of mouth?
This is not fabrication.
JAyadevi:
Yes i spent two months going through the Suriname Database; its was like reliving the past. Three of my ancestors records are in those data bank AND THEY MATCH THE IMMIGRATION NUMBER ON the birth certificate of my mother.
w

---

Jansher,
Quit your crap and read carefully. I said I so not trust word of mouth. I am not an ignoramus and know the task before you and it is not easy. I however know the area of expertise required to do the scanning, the kinds of overhead scanning devices that would scan books and large format documents. Had you gotten off your bloody high horse and read carefully through the course of my discussion with BK you would see we were talking about information gathering strategy and not slandering you in any way.

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posted February 01, 2002 06:37 PM            

A n Immigration Certificate of a Passenger bound to Guyana

11991
Depot No                              704
Ship No                                67
Ship's Name                      SS "Sutley1916"
Name                                     Edu
Father's Name                    Jahoor
Age                                          20
Caste                                        Musalman
District                                   Bahraich, Thana Hazurpur. Uttar Pradesh State
Village or Town                SUROLA
Particulars                              GONDA
     OF                                    December 3,1915
Registration                         Register No 60

SENT TO ROSE HALL ESTATE IN BRITISH GUIANA
BRITISH GUIANA GOVERNMENT
EMIGRATION AGENCY
61, GARDEN BEACH
N.B   CALCUTTA, FEBRUARY 12,1916
Passed by Government Immigration Agent.....Benaals
                              

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posted February 01, 2002 06:50 PM            

many records are thrown about at Vlissengen Road and Tommy Payne, the PNC Houdini, made many documents disappear.

Guyana is the only country where documents are not kept properly.

I know my info because there are papers, documents, letters, journals and all which provide crucial information and they have always been in the family since the late 1800's.

I can go back to my ancestors in India and I know where they all came from except information on my aji.

Other than that I have everyone's data ,but best of all are the letters,journals and photos from the late 1800's.

I say if people are interested they shoud do it, it changes your entire perspective on life.

My daughter once told me that evry indo guyanese kid in north america and London should research their family since so many are displaced. They are indian at home and their community but outside they dont know whether to identify with black, spanish etc , they tint and dye their hair , wear colored contacts and go against the grain. Nothing wrong , but you can see they suffer from an identity crises.
I remember when I got married my wife who is indian was a 2nd generation Roman Catholic and her church priest refused to bless or marruage because she got married according to hindu rites. Her family were not too happy either but I figured if they wanted this man as family they gots to divy up. When my kids were born I gave them all indian names and this further upset them. Then my kids found their school friends in NY never used their indian names in school but preferred to use english names. As kids , knowing and appreciating their heritage , this upset them and they spoke to their friends indicating it was disrespectful to their ancestors.

So after this long story I say it is good when some one wants to know their past. It gives them a greater sense of purpose.

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posted February 01, 2002 07:18 PM            

I totally agree with you. Unless we know our past and appreciate and instill it on the immigration generation here they will continue to search for indentity. I am fortunate to know of most of my ancestors and its something that i would like other to have the benefit also. Most of the doucments are still there, but some have been destroyed. I want to foucus on the postive.

Some have raised the issue of caste and I would lke to say that from studing the immigration pattern of Suriname from that database (guyana is identica) Chamar (chamar was not the majority) did not out number Hajam, Ahir, Koihar, Kurmi, bhar, kewat, kori, passi, teli, lokh, jal, katar, meter; the only cat. in small numbers were: chatri, thakur, Jat-singh, brahman

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posted February 01, 2002 08:13 PM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by kidmost:
Jhanser Guyana's indenture records are in very pooor condition much less the birth and deaths.

many records are thrown about at Vlissengen Road and Tommy Payne, the PNC Houdini, made many documents disappear.

Guyana is the only country where documents are not kept properly.

I know my info because there are papers, documents, letters, journals and all which provide crucial information and they have always been in the family since the late 1800's.

I can go back to my ancestors in India and I know where they all came from except information on my aji.

Other than that I have everyone's data ,but best of all are the letters,journals and photos from the late 1800's.

I say if people are interested they shoud do it, it changes your entire perspective on life.

My daughter once told me that evry indo guyanese kid in north america and London should research their family since so many are displaced. They are indian at home and their community but outside they dont know whether to identify with black, spanish etc , they tint and dye their hair , wear colored contacts and go against the grain. Nothing wrong , but you can see they suffer from an identity crises.
I remember when I got married my wife who is indian was a 2nd generation Roman Catholic and her church priest refused to bless or marruage because she got married according to hindu rites. Her family were not too happy either but I figured if they wanted this man as family they gots to divy up. When my kids were born I gave them all indian names and this further upset them. Then my kids found their school friends in NY never used their indian names in school but preferred to use english names. As kids , knowing and appreciating their heritage , this upset them and they spoke to their friends indicating it was disrespectful to their ancestors.

So after this long story I say it is good when some one wants to know their past. It gives them a greater sense of purpose.

---

Not knocking you but what's your point here. I work amonst indians from india and the vast majority have shorten their names to better suit american nomenclature. As you very well know even extremely simple english names such as David and James is preferably call Dave and Jim in america. My point is I don't think anyone is disrepecting their ancestors but are merely fitting in. The use of died hair and colour contacts are merely fashion fads and may not be identity crisis issues.

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Am having an uncle check to see if they came to Guyana via Suriname.

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posted February 01, 2002 10:39 PM            

Please post the specifics of the documents to be scanned.

1. Are all bounded in books
2. Type of paper/condition
3. Quantity of Documents - number of pages /volumes
4. Legible?
5. Size of pages / size of book

Bound books changes the whole criteria for scanning and will become a more expensive proposition. The type of scanners needed to scan those types of books while preserving the integretity are expensive.

I will do some research for you since I have no experience with this method. D2 seems to have more practical info on this.

From all indications it might be cheaper to send the books to a service bureau to be initially scanned. Once the info is in the electronic format it would then be easier to set up your searchable data base.

Reason I am saying this is because the optical scanners required to scan the types of bound material you are talking about might be over $10,000 US.

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posted February 01, 2002 11:21 PM            

i will have to get back to you on the specifics. I believe that they are about fifty log books, large sizes of about 100 pages each. The papers are in delicate consitions. I will get more specific information on this. I will soon be contacting the Texiera and the archives. Maybe someone here on line is familiar with the logs.

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posted February 01, 2002 11:45 PM            

As I mentioned earlier, the cheapest and most immediate method of getting those pages in electronic format is to get a good digital camera capable of close up shots, and take j-p-e-g images of the pages. That could be an initial step that can be done relatively quick. At least you would have something electronic that can now be printed back on to regular paper which could possibly be scanned into the Adobe Software with a regular cheap scanner. Sounds a bit hairbrained but it could work.

A good digital camera cost about $700 dollars.

[This message has been edited by mm65 (edited February 02, 2002).]

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posted February 01, 2002 11:59 PM            

and here is some relevant info I found on the net.

Scanning and Digitisation Issues

Some notes regarding scanning and other aspects of digitisation, in relation
to Electronic Reserve and other uses.

1. A scanner doesn't do anything on its own - it requires software to drive
it. The software is usually an image-manipulation program such as Photoshop,
or OCR (Optical Character Recognition) software such as TextBridge or
OmniPage.

2. A scanner produces a digital image of the page. This may be saved by the
software as an image file, or in the case of OCR software it may be converted
to text and saved in a text format (plain text, RTF or some other).

3. A fast scanner will scan a typical page of text (i.e. black and white) in
around one to two seconds. Even a moderately priced (~ $2000) scanner should
scan a page of text in under six seconds. Pictures will take longer - the
more detail the slower the scan - with colour photographs taking upwards of
ten seconds, depending on resolution and size.

4. Much more time is taken up with manipulation of the object to be scanned -
turning pages and positioning the page on the scanner, especially when bound
material is being scanned. Typically around 20-30 seconds per page.

5. Manual handling time can be significantly reduced if a sheet feeder can be
used - but this requires the original to be in loose-leaf format, A4 size or
smaller. Bound material would have to be photocopied first to use a sheet
feed, which still might be better than scanning one page at a time, because
of positioning difficulties with the average flat-bed scanner.

6. A face-up or book scanner (Minolta 3000PS) has significant advantages in
reducing the manual handling of bound material (as well as protecting the
original). In addition, it can take care of the problem of page curvature due
to binding. They are expensive (~ $18,000), but the extra cost would be paid
for out of savings in staff time if we are intending to do serious work
involving book scanning. For example:
· Flat-bed scanning of a 360pp book at 30 seconds per page = 3 hours staff
time; The Book scanner would reduce this to a few minutes (they still have to
turn the pages!), plus significantly reduce the wear on the book, an
important factor if the scanning is part of a preservation effort. So a
project to digitise 200 books would pay for the scanner in staff time (at
$30/hour).

7. OCR conversion is slower than scanning - typically 60 seconds per page,
although this varies dramatically with the quality of the original (clarity,
type size, type face, cleanliness) - as does the accuracy of the result. AN
error rate of 5% should be expected. Proof reading of the results will
generally be required.

8. Before scanning, resolution must be considered carefully. Resolution is
typically measured in dpi ("dots per inch"), sometimes ppi ("pixels per
inch"). The resolution required depends very much on the intended use.
For a photograph intended to be displayed on a monitor, 100dpi is fine. PC
and Mac monitors usually display at 90dpi and 75dpi respectively, so any
greater resolution will not give better results, just a bigger image on
screen. This is because the size of the image must be expanded to match the
resolution of the screen, otherwise the software would have to "throw away"
the excess "dots" which would seriously degrade the image quality(!)
Example (standard 35mm photograph scanned at 100dpi)
For text, greater resolution is necessary because you need maximum contrast
in the image for readability or OCR - a resolution of 200dpi is "fuzzy" but
OK for display, 300dpi should be used for OCR.
Choosing a greater resolution will result in a much bigger file if saving to
disk, so storage must be carefully considered also. Double the resolution and
you'll get a file four times as big (roughly speaking). A 200dpi tiff image
file is typically around 150k with compression.

9. If image files only are needed (i.e. text conversion not necessary) then a
choice of file format must be made.
A number of file formats are possible: tiff, gif and **** being the three
most useful. For a single page document (including photographs) gif or ****
should be used. For a multi-page document, the intended use must be carefully
considered. The original Electronic Reserve pilot used multiple tiff files,
so that the user needed to download and view each page separately, returning
to the index page for each one.
An alternative is now available using the Ariel software, which scans a
multi-page document and produces a single output file (a multi-part tiff
file; this file format may be viewed using a compatible viewer). So we could
use Ariel to create single image files for each exam paper (or other
multi-page document), which overcomes the problem of requiring the user to
download each page separately. The Imaging accessory which comes bundled with
NT4 makes a very good "reader", and there are several other freely-available
viewers for both Windows and Mac platforms.
Example (2-page document from Ariel)

10. Obviously, the process of putting material online is much easier if you
can start with digital copy - i.e. a machine-readable source, such as a Word
document. This may be readily converted either into HTML web page, or into
PDF format using Adobe Acrobat, either process taking considerably less time
than scanning and OCR.
Further reading
A few scanning tips, by Wayne Fulton http://www.scantips.com
A buyer's guide to desktop scanners http://www.scannercentral.com/scanners/

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posted February 02, 2002 04:38 AM         

You are leading us on a path of division; things we have no part of. We have a common history in Guyana. Can we please start there? There is brotherhood and kinship in suffering. It has brought us together. Please keep it that way.

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posted February 02, 2002 09:06 AM         

quote:

---

Originally posted by arty:
Without any disrespect meant, wouldn't your time and monies be better spent researching and learning the African Experience in Guyana?
You are after all Indian and no one can take that away from you, but by learning more of the history of those with whom you share the land you can better grasp and therefore understand that they too have a need to belong. They too want to feel a part of something....and that something lies in the land of our birth, not of our ancestors.

You are leading us on a path of division; things we have no part of. We have a common history in Guyana. Can we please start there? There is brotherhood and kinship in suffering. It has brought us together. Please keep it that way.

---

arty,
i respectfully say you are lost on this one,

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posted February 02, 2002 09:48 AM            

Well said!

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posted February 02, 2002 10:04 AM         

In terms of the African historical record, of course, you know this is an impossiblity. African slaves were not even allowed to keep their African names, much less anything else. Some Africans in Surinam, the Maroons and other managed to preserve some of their dialect merged with the local languages, and other elements. But you could enlighten us on the African experience if you are interested in the topic of 'transplanted population of a people,' which is the case for Indians, Africans, Chinese, etc. in Guyana, Surinam and the Caribbean.

Unfortunately, some Caribbean authors discount the realities of the diverse cultures and religions that came to the Caribbean. In fact, many people internationally do not know that Indians exist in the Caribbean region even though Guyana, Trinidad and Surinam have such large populations. The process of westernization and christianization took its course in the 'melting pot' for many except those who resisted in order for the retention of some values.

I agree with you that it is important to learn about others with whom we share a society. It is here that we meet at the crossroad with discovering similaries about ourselves and differences as well. But in most cases, you will find that one group or another tries to DISCOUNT the existence and reality of the OTHER that he or she does not know much about.

This is the reason Walter Rodney had to make a journey to Africa in order to share the knowledge beyond the Caribbean experience to others. However, for Africans, returning to that place prior to being uprooted would be an impossibility. What records will there be? Perhaps by forgetting and the loss of memory - perhaps by the absense of oral tradition - perhaps because of the pain, the lost years (1600s, 1700s, 1800s) -Africans could not return. It is all understandable.
Africans have adapted the European system of ways to move forward while developing a unique Caribbeanness (Jamaica, Trinidad especially). But Indians brought with them, their culture, customs and religions and for those who want to KNOW, RETAIN and LEARN about their ancestral journey, it is not too late to gather some (if not all or a lot) of the records. Indians were brainwashed to FORGET, ADAPT, CHANGE and become another people inthe Caribbean region. But it does not mean they should be in a VACUUM about their ancestors' information if this is available to them today. Why not?

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posted February 02, 2002 11:56 AM            

Having said all that, the question is where are we now headed?

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posted February 02, 2002 12:03 PM            

the 18, 000 scanner sounds good put pricy, anyway the digital camera and i know the type u talking about. I used it before. Yes those will do it.

Jaya devi: we have to discuss more how u can help in this endevour. I will be writing letter and travelling to GY soon.